Yeah, only two alternatives. 1) keep irresponsibly encouraging Ukraine to fight a war they cannot win, losing hundreds of thousands and more territory than they could have negotiated if they agreed to remain neutral and not join NATO, something which may very well never happen. Ukraine can produce virtually none of their own weapons so when the US decides to stop supplying their weapons they will have to sue for peace ASAP. 2) Have NATO and the USA pour hundreds of thousands of troops into Ukraine to fight the Russians, which you correctly say could lead to nuclear war. You are right that it will probably end up like Korea, and poor Ukraine may well up landlocked and with a population 1/3 or less of the 2014 population. Aside from the perhaps a millions Ukrainians may be killed if this drags on longer, it is doubtful that the millions of Ukrainians living all over Western Europe will want to go back to their destroyed homeland. You also right to cite US foreign policy elites/ neocon goal of weakening Russia, and I would add Military Industrial profits as another main motivation for our support.
No one knows how the war will turn out. When Biden warned the world Russia was moving to take over and leaked false flag plans, they also offered Zelensky a chance to leave his country in exile. We gave up on Ukranians before Russians even stepped across the northern Ukrainian border, and we might've been right if the Russians had taken over an airstrip. This war is alive entirely through Ukrainian grit and will. Instead of pitying poor Ukrainians for "being puppets" by Americans, I'd rather feel sorry for the victims of Russian aggression. In the situation where we tuck tail, give Russia everything and sue for peace, will Putin return all the children they kidnapped to their borders? Will they pay for reconstruction, and prosecute murders, rapists, thieves and other war criminals? Or should the west foot the bill for "losing the chessmatch"? ****ing ridiculous. The West has done everything possible to drag their feet on escalating weaponry and the US directly forbids Ukrainians from using their weapons on Russian soil. I don't see how NATO/USA will put boots on the ground when the Biden Admin doesn't even want Ukraine to win through causing destruction on Russia proper. There's heavy indoctrination by the old school extreme socialist left that whatever the US does is omnisciently calculated or wrapped in corporate malfeasance. Europe really wanted the Russia/China situation to work through trade. They dragged their feet until the last minute in disbelief that Putin would do something this stupid as the world largely accepted Crimea to be firmly Russian. To blame the US for Ukrainian suffering belittles their struggle for true independence. You let murderers, rapists and thieves go unpunished with a mafioso government ringing on their doorstep looking for more to steal or burn. Russia has destroyed Ukrainian economic and industrial capacity non-stop since the invasion. I'm not sure why you think Russia will stop if the West ignores their crimes, yet again. The question here is why do YOU trust Russia with poor Ukraine more than the US/NATO?
A non-response to @Major. Then in your post to Judo you insult @Major, dismissing his post by essentially saying that Major just likes to play games. The member here who is playing games is you, which is what you are doing when you post the utter nonsense below, in my opinion. From Space Ghost: "However, what is the solution? As I stated, wishing Putin away doesn't change anything. And there could be someone much worse behind Putin. From an ordinary Russians perspective, today is better than yesterday. The reason why I stated sanctions are largely ineffective is because the world needs energy. Cutting off one of the largest supplies of energy is a bit silly in an era of energy shortages. For most people, if they are to choose between the Ukrainians or suffering from no energy, they will pick their needs first. There are enough countries in this world who will buy Russian energy to sustain Putin's ambitions, sanctions be damned. Our goal should not be to defeat Russia. It should be to raise the standard of living for Russians to the point where they are dependent on their neighbors to maintain their improved lifestyle." That was the original idea behind sanctions; To force the Russian people to replace Putin. This works on tiny countries with few exports like N Korea and Cuba.
Why do you keep lying over and over again? The CIA chief AND Biden were BEGGING Zelensky to prepare for an invasion and issue a general mobilization and start mining the field. It was zelensky that called biden a war monger and it was zelensky staff that called CNN worst than Russian propoganda. They didnt do a god damn thing to prepare for war. Zelensky failed his country on every level and its so interesting how folks like to magically skip over everything that happened pre war. The idea that we "gave up" on UKR before the war is ridiculous. Biden surged billions of dollars of extra weapons to UKR even though zelensky didnt ask for it. Its just so amazing how history rewrites itself and nobody likes to hear the truth. Zelensky utterly failed as the leader of Ukraine because he laughed off Biden and Burns recommendations. The CIA still trained an elite group of ukrianians which they deployed to save the battle of hostomel airpot. NOTHING Zelensky did was what saved Ukraine. It was the CIA and Biden. If Trump or anyone else would've been POTUS they would've told Zelensky its their fault for not listening and preparing and that they just have to suffer. Trump would never in a million years take a hit on his approval rating bcz of gas prices to help defend Ukraine. Not in a million years. Its just interesting how so many people love to completely rewrite history.
Why ? Ignoring totally optimistic reporting on Ukrainian victories, which seem to be fading: 1) Ukraine now about 1/5 of the population of Russia. -- millions have left. 2). No appreciable arms industry. 3). USA who supplies the vast majority of the arms unwilling for total economic or war mobilization --or at least approaching Russia. 4). Much anticipated Ukraine offensive with the best of their remaining troops has gone nowhere. 5) NATO not willing to risk nuclear war with Russia
1. Modern wars are won with logistics, not troop totals. Ukraine is trying to liberate occupied portions of its country, not conquer imperial Russia. 2. These last two years have shown that neither nation has a modern arms industry. But Ukraine has support of numerous modern arms industries. And Russia is getting munitions from North Korea and Iran. 3. Unnecessary, Ukraine has the desire to defend its borders. And now it has the modern arms to do it. 4. They have broken through the first line of defense. 5. Unnecessary. Imperialism is a cancer. Even if it's wrapped in a Russian tricolor flag. Ukraine's biggest issue is that is stuck using Soviet doctrines for its armed forces.
The US pulled out of the Kyiv embassy and offered Zelenksy a ticket out. Just because you see events differently and claim superior knowledge doesn't mean others are lying or wrong. Why do you keep spazzing over and over? Maybe Z did foul up pre-invasion preparation, but the situation changes instantly like what we saw with our planned pullout in Afghanistan. You don't think the US would roll back from all out war into resistance tactics if Kyiv had fallen? Regardless, Zelenksy gets credit for staying and for being their symbolic leader when the world thought they were toast. He popular now with the Ukrainians when before his political prospects looked dead in the water. They all played an outcome while you're here armchairing as if only Zelenksy would play harder under Coach B.
You're listing things that usa did AFTER it was apparant zelensky wasnt taking BIden seriously. Zelensky chief of staff literally called Biden a war monger and here you are claiming that the USA somehow left Zelensky out to dry. I support UKR but i also live in reality. Do some research on the events that actually occured pre war. William burns the CIA chief flew to Moscow and spoke to Putin and then flew directly to Zelensky to warn him only to be not taken seriously. You can spin all the stories you want but they dont make them true. Its insane how everyone has somehow completely rewritten history. It makes you wonder what other historical events were completely rewritten as well. If you're the president of a third world country and the CIA chief and the US president warns you of an invasion and you refuse to pay attention then thats on you. This isnt some "arm charring" or whatever you wanna claim. Nobody is "spazing" or whatever you're claiming. I just cant stand people trying rewrite history and posting disinformation regardless of which side you're from. Truth is important The issue with lefties like yourself is your argurments are always bs and always anti american tankie talk. Nobody pays attention to lefties on foreign policy because its always the same predictable garbage that you're going hear. RU isnt "gaining" any land for almost a year now. UKR does have a military industry and they are building their own missles. You can want peace like myself and still live in reality unlike yourself.
Chill Francis, you can communicate calmly without throwing accusations of people lying about facts or whether old time members are really lawyers. Can you say with certainty that if Ukraine lost Kyiv, we wouldn't support them with the full backing we have now? Even if you're blaming Zelenksy for that near debacle, the fact is we left that city because we thought it would be lost. We offered Z a ride because we couldn't assure his safety (aka as good as dead). Do you understand logic? Can you entertain the possibility that we're claiming different things at different points in time or is your butt clenched so hard that you made the diamonds in Diamond Joe?
You misinterpt my words. Im not "triggered" or whatever you think I am. I support Ukraine and want Russia to lose. I just believe in stating the truth and not twisting the truth to fit ones narrative. Washington Post did a great story about the war and it really shows you just how completely inept Zelensky was during the early days. Yes hes totally came a long way since then but during the early days of the war he was literally thinking US troops were going cross Poland and save him against Russia. The reason why the US military asked Zelensky to leave UKR and the reason why thought UKR was going to fall in days was because UKR refused to share any intel about their army to the pentagon. The pentagon chief said they had more intel on the RU army than they did on the UKR army. They had no formations no organizations no battle plans nothing. https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/interactive/2022/ukraine-road-to-war/
1). Logistics? Interestingly Russia can supply their troops by train and truck. The US is strong, but is thousands of miles away. 2). and 3) together. If the number of soldiers does not matter and Ukraine has modern arms why aren't they just crushing the Russians? 4). Reports are inconclusive as to whether Ukraine has broken through the "first line" of defense or what that means exactly., As another poster said above it really unknowable for us as to who is "winning" on a day to day basis. Imperialism is a cancer whether wrapped in the Russian or American flag.
The problem that both you and @Space Ghost are missing is that the Ukrainians aren’t being goaded or manipulated to fight by the US. If they wanted to surrender they could. We saw this with Afghanistan and Vietnam that we really can’t force another people to fight if they don’t want to.
Once again @glynch is back to parrot the Donald J. Trump "you think we're so innocent" line in defense of Russias war criminal of a president's penchant for serial atrocity and war criming. Can't stop, won't stop. I got no words or pithy turns of phrase other than to say it's some shameful **** brother. It's not imperialism to help Ukraine defend itself from Russia - it's humanism son.
Move to Russia and tell me how great it is and how much one should be a part of this amazing place and ideology. No seriously, please move.
Agreed you cannot force people to fight. To a certain extent I guess you could say whether there is anything to be gained by the war for the Ukrainians is if you think they can achieve anything on the battle field i.e "win". I really don't think the Ukrainians will be like the Taliban with their fundamentalist religion or the Germans under Hitler willing to fight once they run out of soldiers and are not given weapons 90% by the US. "Give me liberty or give me death". or " I would rather be dead than Red" are cool while following wars from afar. Almost no modern wars wind up with total unconditional surrender and the most likely result is that will wind up with a Korean type hostile armed border ending. Even in Korea we will probably see the two countries work out a peaceful agreement in the not too distant future
