It isn't hopeless, and it advances the US desires by weakening our biggest foe in Russia......and the Ukraine is wanting to fight, so there is zero wrong with providing them the help to do so. The other alternative would be for Nato to go in and roll up Russia - which could lead to Nuclear War, so this is a better alternative. If the Ukraine has hope, it is not hopeless. Right now where this is headed is a Korea situation, where a state of war still exists, but a ceasefire has been in place for 70 ish years. DD
Bulls***. Large numbers of Americans and our NATO allies, unlike you, support helping a large European democracy defend itself against a vicious Fascist dictatorship bent on absorbing all of Ukraine within a “Greater Russia.” Something that is a long held dream of Putin’s. A dream he has written about. The former Eastern European countries that spent decades under the thumb of Russia when she controlled the Soviet Union support Ukraine more than anyone else, because they remember what it was like. The secret police. The revolts crushed by tanks. All except Hungary, where the autocrat Orban has essentially destroyed a free press and freedom of expression at their universities. But I’m repeating myself. I have said all this and more before, and you keep presenting yourself as the poster boy for an example of someone who buys into the output of Putin’s propaganda machine. You pump out insulting lies, that we don’t care about the Ukrainian casualties, when the opposite is true. Putin has killed and maimed thousands of Ukrainian civilians and continues to. You would reward him for it. You and those like you are either staggeringly ignorant of what is happening to Ukraine, or simply don’t care. In your case, it is clearly the latter. In my opinion.
You would happily let Ukraine fall if it was between a single member of your family was on the front lines of that hell hole facing an almost certain death. Nobody would support this war if it was Americans on the front lines. This is a war of convenience, as DaDakota put so elegantly "it advances the US desires by weakening our biggest foe in Russia". This war has long moved past dominance of territory and has now turned into an attrition of human lives. This is despicable.
I disagree, DD. The Ukrainians want their country. All of it, and they are determined to have it, in my opinion.
That is war, any time Putin wants to end it he can leave. The Ukranians are fighting for their homes - you can't ask them to lay down, this is their home.....you help your neighbors.....IMHO, we should offer NATO to them now. DD
Maybe I just see it stagnating into a deal like this. All territory that is gained is Russia including Crimea - and the Ukraine gets automatic entry into NATO - any person in occupied territory will get help relocating. And any further attack by Russia would result in a full NATO response. DD
Yeah, let's just ignore what Ukrainians want and are willing to give up their lives for. Ukrainians seem to disagree and are supporting this war despite their own lives being on the front lines. I know they and their hopes and dreams are irrelevant to you, but they aren't "nobody" despite how little you think of them.
Faux Outrage Pretending one is offended, insulted or generally affronted by something which they really are not. The faux outrage is usually expressed publicly because it is done in the service of an agenda. Those expressing faux outrage usually labor under the delusion that no one can see through them, but most can
If cancer would stop replicating, then nobody would die of cancer - We can wish problems that aren't going to go away. We should offer NATO up to Ukraine only if you are ready to put your family on the front lines.
And do you think not providing the Ukrainians arms will lead to more lives saved? Remember the Ukrainians wet preparing to fight an insurgency against the Russian back in february of 2022. Historically Russia hasn’t been gentle insurgents having leveled Grozny in the late 90’s. We’ve also seen how Russia treats occupied area of Ukraine with arbitrary killings and other war crimes. It’s still astounding that people are auggesting the humanitarian move is to not support Ukraine given what we know of Russian history.
What context then do you have? Do you believe we shouldn’t be supporting Ukraine because it will save lives?
I used to love war movies growing up and into adulthood. Over the last decade or so, I have become anti-war. War should only be a last resort and rare in modern age of society. As a species, we simply can not continue to evolve if we continue to kill each other over frivolous reasons. Killing each other over land, resources and ideology is barbaric, especially in the form of conscription. World War II was the last noble war. The world had a lunatic who was systematically exterminating innocent people based on ideology. He was also very motivated to create WMD's that he would have no doubt used on anything and everything. That is worth dying for.
Major is someone who enjoys debating and somehow feels elevated if he can 'gotcha' someone into a win, as if it somehow changes the spirit of the conversation. For example, when I stated 'nobody would support the war', he is correct. I poorly communicated my thought. The American support for the Ukraine war would change if it was American soldiers dying on the front lines. Except Major knows what I am referring to and instead chooses to bog the conversation down in technicalities. Its boring and very typical of him. He has zero interest in conversation and only desires to be right. As I stated, NATO is not going to join this war. I could be wrong. The dreams of sanctions and Russia self-collapsing is growing more distant, something that I found less of a probability since the beginning of the war. It is becoming more and more apparent this is an attrition of human lives, which as I stated, is despicable. I have always stated Putin puts little value on human lives. Its time to come to the negotiation table. If Americans are not going to put their children on the front lines, then its time for Zelenski to concede defeat and stop the stupid rhetoric like driving Russia out of Crimea before he is ready to end the war.
I largely agree with most of what you have to say here. However, what is the solution? As I stated, wishing Putin away doesn't change anything. And there could be someone much worse behind Putin. From an ordinary Russians perspective, today is better than yesterday. The reason why I stated sanctions are largely ineffective is because the world needs energy. Cutting off one of the largest supplies of energy is a bit silly in an era of energy shortages. For most people, if they are to choose between the Ukrainians or suffering from no energy, they will pick their needs first. There are enough countries in this world who will buy Russian energy to sustain Putins ambitions, sanctions be damned. Our goal should not be to defeat Russia. It should be to raise the standard of living for Russians to the point where they are dependent on their neighbors to maintain their improved lifestyle. That was the original idea behind sanctions; To force the Russian people to replace Putin. This works on tiny countries with few exports like N Korea and Cuba.
What is the connection between Americans putting soldiers on the frontline and Zelensky needing to concede defeat? Ukrainians have evaluated the situation and decided it's worth risking their lives to resist Russian invasion. That is the inconvenient fact that you can't get around.
If no country is willing to provide meat for the Ukraine grinder, then its simply a war of attrition measured in human lives. Again, a barbaric way to fight a war. The United States didn't drop the nuclear weapon on Japan to kill as many Japanese as possible, they did it to end the war quickly to stop the killing and save lives over the long run. Putin doesn't care about human lives. He will continue to run his people into this grinder and he has a much large population than Ukraine. Putin is now well fortified. Ukraine can only go so much further before running out of people or more likely, the Ukrainians throwing Zelenski out of office in exchange for someone to negotiate a peace deal. Or we just hope Russia collapses and removes Putin out of office. Winter is coming and energy is becoming more valuable. Its a rather simple formula; If energy prices and/or demand goes up, Putin wins. If energy prices go down and/or demand goes down, Putin loses. You can go do your own research on future energy demand.
Again. Ukrainians have evaluated the situation and decided it's worth risking their lives to resist Russian invasion. That is the inconvenient fact that you can't get around.
