1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Ukraine

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by NewRoxFan, Nov 25, 2018.

  1. astros123

    astros123 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2013
    Messages:
    13,567
    Likes Received:
    10,996


    BTW this isn't my stance @rocketsjudoka . Vivek is legitimately insane
     
    dmoneybangbang likes this.
  2. Nook

    Nook Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2008
    Messages:
    59,756
    Likes Received:
    132,156
    Yup - the absolute worst part of the United States.

    That is the Kensington neighborhood in Philadelphia.... that street intersection is Kensington and Somerset.

    It isn't really very large, but there are a lot of videos on it... everyone uses it for whatever their political or social agendas are.

    The police do not arrest people there for drug use, they just put out wound care stations and give out clean needles - so it attracts all the addicts on the Eastern side of the USA.

    It isn't as bad, but there is an area similar in San Francisco and Los Angeles that attract all of the drug users from the West part of the USA, because of the weather in California and because they give more benefits and resources than most places in the USA.
     
  3. Nook

    Nook Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2008
    Messages:
    59,756
    Likes Received:
    132,156
    Putin has friends - it's just that all of them are dead. He had one die in a plane wreck only a few days ago. They are still trying to figure what happened that caused it to crash, my money is that it collided with one of those weather balloons I have hears so much about.
     
    MadMax, basso and ROCKSS like this.
  4. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2001
    Messages:
    45,954
    Likes Received:
    28,046
    I had the same vibes as LA and SF. yay
     
    Nook likes this.
  5. basso

    basso Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    33,274
    Likes Received:
    9,243
  6. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2000
    Messages:
    19,182
    Likes Received:
    15,318
  7. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Messages:
    58,167
    Likes Received:
    48,334
    Yes this is another example of why a peace treaty anytime soon is unlikely.
     
    Nook and mikol13 like this.
  8. astros123

    astros123 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2013
    Messages:
    13,567
    Likes Received:
    10,996
    How can any of you not think this is somehow selfish from Ukraine POV. Again nobody is asking ukraine to give up land but if their ask is for Crimea or something else then that's absolutely crazy.

    I really don't understand how you folks see trump on the ballot and want to engage in more escalation going into an election.

    Again we funding every ukrianian public pension and government salary. They have no incentive to have peace. I get told by people that I'm a putin shill cuz I'm somehow not a UKR maximalist.

    Why would they want peace? They're never going get this much support again. Your argument has always been its Russia that's the barrier of peace and my argument all along was it was both if not ukr more. Russia economy is destroyed

    You've now agreed that it's ukr that doesn't want peace and never will unless told by usa
     
    #13548 astros123, Aug 25, 2023
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2023
  9. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Messages:
    58,167
    Likes Received:
    48,334
    Your argument is that the war should be ended so gas prices can come down and Biden can win the election. That seems pretty speculative. It could happen but I don't think Biden alone has the power to end the war. Just cutting off support for Ukraine (which I think is very unlikely to occur) could also have other political repurcussions.
    I've said that Ukraine has no interest in peace. Right before the invasion started they were talking about fighting an insurgency against Russia if they got overrun. All of this shows they have little reason to trust Russia so there is little impetus for them to agree to a peace treaty.
     
    dmoneybangbang likes this.
  10. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2001
    Messages:
    45,954
    Likes Received:
    28,046
    Based on Kotkin's account, the CIA/Pentagon helped assist Ukraine's famously successful counteroffensive earlier this year by directing them to more symbolic and weaker targets rather than Ukraine's intended targets in the south. That's likely a big reason Pentagon folks were belly aching now from the losses Ukraine's taking trying to take back Bakmut.

    This guy opines differently.

    Opinion | Let Ukraine Direct Its Own Counteroffensive
    I think running soldiers and Western armor into the Bakmut meat grinder will amplify attrition issues, but Ukranians are likely pressed for time regardless of what they do. Even "easier" victories doesn't mean a favorable peace settlement is guaranteed.
     
    astros123 likes this.
  11. astros123

    astros123 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2013
    Messages:
    13,567
    Likes Received:
    10,996
    Mark Miley said this week that the Pentagon told the Ukrainians that they should focus their effort all in one space instead of being too spread apart. The ukrianians didnt listen and lost alot of IFV's. When UKR did listen to the Pentagon they had huge success earlier last year and at the opening of the war at hostomel airport.

    If you bash or say anything negative about UkR army you get called a Putin shill and all sorts of negative words. Its so ridiculous how some of the UKR folks have turned into MAGA. The truth of the matter is that before the war started UKR had no army organization. They had no tactical formations or planned for the war because they were thinking Biden was a war monger and RU would never attack.

    Its ridiculous that they think they know better than the Pentagon.
     
  12. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2001
    Messages:
    45,954
    Likes Received:
    28,046
    Who really knows what's going on behind the fog of war... Some of these accounts are revealed months later, if ever.

    I can't trust much into what generals say as they follow orders and are focused upon leading a battlefield or effort towards a desired direction. In this case, Ukraine and the US might have different directions, most notably the degree of response on Russian soil and possibly what constitutes an acceptable win condition.

    I'm just a zero clearance pleb piecing this out for ***** and giggles on a workday
     
    glynch and dobro1229 like this.
  13. dobro1229

    dobro1229 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2010
    Messages:
    25,676
    Likes Received:
    22,396
    I get that too. However there have been some really good reports from western journalists that have visited the front lines in recent weeks and I do trust some of those anecdotal accounts somewhat. What it “seems” like is happening is pretty simple:

    -mines Russians laid (cheap and effective) have made the counter offensive slow for good reason.

    -Many of the Ukrainian generals still employ Soviet battle tactics which frustrates western Allies. Mostly because it’s spray and pray then send in cavalry once you’ve blasted the place to smithereens. It’s a waste of ammunition and has little affect.

    -Russian elite special forces are finally being deployed in the northern regions which is not your typical Wagner cannon fodder. It shows the Russians are taking these next 6 months seriously.

    What all this means in the long run who knows but sounds like …. Well…. War.
     
    Invisible Fan likes this.
  14. Major

    Major Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 1999
    Messages:
    41,681
    Likes Received:
    16,205
    They would want peace because their economy is a wreck and they keep getting missiles shot into their cities killing their people. Would you want to live that way? They are unable to move forward as a country until there is peace.

    At the same time, they want their ****ing country back too. Peace for the sake of it is pointless, if all it does is let Russia regroup and invade again in a few years or leave their country a disaster. They need their land and people back and they need Western security guarantees going forward. Until then, this can't really end for them.

    The other effect of Ukraine spreading out their forces is that it forced Russia to spread out their forces. This is a good article on Ukraine and Bahkmut - as noted earlier, attacking that place destroys forces. So Ukraine has taken the upper ground and instead of trying to take it back, has just taken a defensive position to destroy Russian forces: https://www.dailykos.com/stories/20...Ukrainian-trap-it-may-have-served-its-purpose

    Ukraine has controlled the dominant heights south of Bakhmut and west of Klishchiivka since early to mid-July. Ukraine controls the southern portion of the town proper as well. Kllischiivka lies in a gully between two hills, and has been fiercely contested by both Russian and Ukrainian troops.

    Interestingly, after Ukraine gained control of the dominant heights, Ukraine quickly moved into the city of Klishchiivka, then the broader advance was halted. Ukraine has, indeed, launched repeated attacks towards Klishchiivka and Andriivka in the lowlands east of the heights, over and over. Yet each time, Russia has counterattacked and regained possession or prevented full control.

    This is a somewhat odd state of affairs. Attacks often peter out right as they reach a strong enemy position. Consider Ukraine’s counteroffensive last fall, when Russian troops finally put up a stiff defense at Kreminna, and a rampaging-but-exhausted Ukrainian army was finally stopped. That’s not what’s happening here. Ukraine has the combat capability to push forward but has chosen not to.

    if Ukraine’s objective is to attrit Russian troops, as opposed to gaining ground, there are no better places than here. Sitting on these dominant heights, Ukrainian observers and drones can look down into the lowlands, providing laser-spotting and GPS coordinates of Russian positions to Ukraine’s conventional and rocket artillery.

    For example, this video of Russian tanks rolling toward Klishchiivka was posted by The Telegraph just four days ago. From their high vantage point, Ukrainian artillery observers easily watch the tanks moving through the lower lying roads, then call in devastating Ukrainian artillery fire.


    ...

    UKRAINIAN TACTICS NORTH OF BAKHMUT

    Ukraine appears to be doing something similar north of Bakhmut. Many assumed they were trying to take territory to encircle Bakhmut from the north. Instead, Ukraine stopped right at the base of a series of hills under Ukrainian control.

    So here too, along the M03 highway north of Ukrainian-controlled heights, in the valley to the west of Dubovo Vasilivka, and the towns of Berkhivka and Yahidne, Ukraine just happens to have stopped at the base of hills they control.

    Many assumed that Russian resistance stymied further Ukrainian advances, but look at the map below—from May to late July, Ukraine has systematically advanced to the edge of the hills north and south of Bakhmut, and precisely no further.

    It’s hard to see that as anything but deliberate.

    By all rights, it looks like Ukraine has established itself in a solid defensible position controlling the flanks of the western heights around Khromove, then proceeded to invite Russian troops to run headlong into the lowlands below the heights over and over—into Ukrainian artillery kill zones.


    The Pentagon thought Ukraine would be overrun in a few weeks at the beginning of the war. They've been wrong about Ukraine ... a lot.
     
    DaDakota and dobro1229 like this.
  15. Buck Turgidson

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2002
    Messages:
    100,257
    Likes Received:
    102,337
    I'm assuming that op-ed is from the same Jack Keane who has worked with Flynn and Kushner to transfer nukes to Saudi Arabia under the auspices of a nebulous "joint US-Russia program".

    Sounds trustworthy to me.
     
    adoo, Nook, No Worries and 2 others like this.
  16. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2001
    Messages:
    45,954
    Likes Received:
    28,046
    You're right. I assumed he was just a fox news shill but Flynn carried the most water from that scandal that it doesn't show up on keene's wiki

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna973021

    That said, he's saying the Ukranians should get more credit for knowing what's going on in the frontlines. If they can take Tokmak, Melitopol would be next.
     
    #13556 Invisible Fan, Aug 30, 2023
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2023
  17. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2002
    Messages:
    57,776
    Likes Received:
    41,194
    You provided an excellent example of the Ukrainian military making good use of the terrain and their artillery, @Major. Their attrition of the Russian forces in and around Bakhmut is clearly hurting them. The video below provides a good example of what they're doing.



    Here's an interview from Britain's Sky News with Professor Michael Clarke, who gives an overview of the entire front that's very up to date.

     
    #13557 Deckard, Aug 30, 2023
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2023
  18. StupidMoniker

    StupidMoniker I lost a bet

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2001
    Messages:
    16,119
    Likes Received:
    2,811
    It's interesting, either the war in Ukraine is hopeless and the Ruskies are going to end up with big big chunks of Ukraine, or is a middle ground that reorients the diplomatic situtation that rakes that off the table.
     
  19. glynch

    glynch Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2000
    Messages:
    18,058
    Likes Received:
    3,587
    After Vietnam, Iraq I and II and Afghanistan, I am amazed at he simplistic faith in the mainstream media with respect to our wars-- and it is our war in many ways.
     
    Space Ghost likes this.
  20. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 1999
    Messages:
    18,107
    Likes Received:
    8,554
    Its simply sad for the disregard for human lives. Many people supporting this war are perfectly fine providing weapons and munitions against a hopeless cause provided American lives are not at risk.
     

Share This Page