I don't care to join the same repeated discussions that have gone absolutely no where within this thread, but I did want to repeat something I think I said earlier in the thread. There's this idea that people who don't "get" Bitcoin (or crypto) just don't understand it, and they just need to watch some magical video that will explain away all their concerns. Yeah that's not a compelling argument, nor would I say it is very accurate. The only times I typically see those types of ideas are with things you probably don't want to be associated with. If you want this stuff to take off, do better than that. I'd argue that if it is so difficult to understand the benefits, perhaps the benefits aren't real (why is this seemingly so unique to BTC/crypto?). But even being charitable and assuming there are benefits, albeit ones difficult to understand...well that's on the community to figure out how to overcome that hurdle. So far, I'd say they've done a terrible job of doing that. FWIW I think a scenario like the one mentioned involving refugees is a *better* response to those who question its value. I too would question the significance of that value provided (relative to alternatives that are or could be available), but I think that's better than some of the other typical responses I see. I doubt anyone will change their minds on anything given the years of discussion on this topic (without much *real* change). I still like to poke my head into this thread just in case (as it helps to learn new things), but seeing stuff like that is fairly annoying (as someone who has probably spent hundreds of hours digging into BTC/crypto, and yet I still don't "get" it). Anyway, rant over. Carry on.
yup! a monetary religion of sorts. 14 years and many pumps and dumps later.... "you just don't get it" "Current use cases for bitcoin are very limited" Couldn't have said it better.
It's just weird.... we are at the stage of using Afghanistan, Nigeria, El Salvador, etc. as positive use cases... And openly wondering why a country has the right to impose economic hardships on a country like North Korea. The the new TAM.... Taliban Addressable Market.
If you browse stocktwits/twitter relating to random penny stocks especially pharmaceutical companies in clinical stages.. you see similar rhetoric. it's the next best thing!
New BitForge cryptocurrency wallet flaws lets hackers steal crypto By Bill Toulas August 9, 2023 Multiple zero-day vulnerabilities named 'BitForge' in the implementation of widely used cryptographic protocols like GG-18, GG-20, and Lindell 17 affected popular cryptocurrency wallet providers, including Coinbase, ZenGo, Binance, and many more. These vulnerabilities could allow attackers to steal digital assets stored in impacted wallets in seconds without requiring interaction with the user or the vendor. The flaws were discovered by the Fireblocks Cryptography Research Team in May 2023, which collectively named them 'BitForge.' Today, the analysts publicly disclosed BitForge in the "Small Leaks, Billions Of Dollars: Practical Cryptographic Exploits That Undermine Leading Crypto Wallets" BlackHat presentation, by which time Coinbase and ZenGo have applied fixes to address the problem. However, Fireblocks says that Binance and dozens of other wallet providers remain vulnerable to BitForge, with Fireblocks Creating a status checker for projects to check if they're exposed to risks due to improper multi-part computation (MPC) protocol implementations. "If exploited, the vulnerability allows a threat actor interacting with the signatories in the TSS protocol to steal their secret shards and ultimately obtain the master secret key," reads Fireblock's report. "The severity of the vulnerability depends on the implementation parameters, so different parameter choices give rise to different attacks with varying degrees of effort/resources required to extract the full key." The vulnerability discovered in the Lindell17 2PC protocol (CVE-2023-33242) is of similar nature, allowing an attacker to extract the entire private key after approximately 200 signature attempts. The flaw lies in the implementation of the 2PC protocol rather than the protocol itself and manifests through a mishandling of aborts by wallets, which forces them to continue signing operations that inadvertently expose bits of the private key. "The attack takes advantage of a mishandling of aborts by wallets using the 2PC protocol given an "impossible choice" between aborting operations, which is an unreasonable approach given funds might be locked in the wallet, or to continue signing and sacrificing additional bits of the key with every signature." - Fireblock The attack that exploits this flaw is "asymmetric," meaning it can be exploited by corrupting the client or the server. In the first scenario, the attacker corrupts the client to make it send commands to the server on their behalf, which will reveal a bit of the server's secret key. Fireblock says 256 such attempts are required to gather enough data to reconstruct the server's entire secret share. However, since there's no limit in place, the attacker can poke the server with many quickly succeeding requests, so the attack can be carried out in a short time. The second scenario targets the secret key of the client, using a compromised server to retrieve it via specially crafted messages. Again, 256 requests are required for complete key extraction. The analysts have also published two proof-of-concept (PoC) exploits for each of the protocols on GitHub. Coinbase told BleepingComputer that they fixed the flaws in its Wallet as a Service (WaaS) solution after the flaws were disclosed, thanking the researchers for their responsible disclosure. "We would like to thank Fireblocks for identifying and responsibly disclosing this issue. While Coinbase customers and funds were never at risk, maintaining a fully trustless cryptographic model is an important aspect of any MPC implementation," said Jeff Lunglhofer, Chief Information Security Officer at Coinbase. "Setting a high industry bar for safety protects the ecosystem and is critical to the broader adoption of this technology." https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2023-33241 https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2023-33242
IACR and CVE aren't legit? Since when? https://github.com/fireblocks-labs/zengo-lindell17-exploit-poc
No kidding. This is all so tiring. If you do not understand the utility of an immutable, incorruptible asset that can be transferred quickly and easily across the globe without any counter-party risk then that's a failure of imagination on your part. Again, you need to do some research. Bitcoin base layer offers final settlement for transactions in a fraction of time compared to banks and other third parties like VISA/SWIFT. Layer two solutions like Lightning (which will soon be ubiquitous) conduct these transactions at 1000x greater energy efficiency than traditional providers. As far as protections go, that's a trade off. I feel more secure (against all vectors -- inflation, fraud, or govt/3rd party interference) with my multi-signature cold storage than I ever have with anything else. It very much is. Either you do not understand BTC well enough or you do not know what decentralized actually means. Fiat may be with us forever, but that's not BTC's fault or problem, nor does it make BTC 'centralized'. Personally, I will never 'cash out'. I plan to take loans out against my BTC as the value accrues. No capital gains or income tax that way.
Utility is a faulty argument as lines are made daily just by expanding existing utility from existing products (such as weak glue that spawned the post-it market). The whole silicon valley startup scene is a tragic comedy on making sense of utility. Value is more debatable, since if you believe it's rat poison and/or ponzi, then you'd think it's less than the trillion dollar market cap from previous highs. There's definitely a market for btc, but the low float in circulation, learning curve/barriers for adoption, and volatility from a handful of players make it hard to take it seriously as a currency and more as an investment/speculatory play. I still think putting a small amount of your wealth, like 5% into it over time isn't a bad idea. I'm not a full believer, so maybe I'll stay poor with modest gains, but I like the ideal of being rewarded for conviction rather than luck...
Tell me you don't understand bitcoin without telling me. What. Does. This. Have. To. Do. With. Bitcoin??? You keep telling me you understand Bitcoin enough to have a strong opinion but you post something that has absolutely nothing to do with Bitcoin and continue to tell me it does.
Yup. Passionate believers can scream about utility all day long but to the average joe, there's not much value from switching to bitcoin or crypto. sorry bros, yall gonna have to come up with better stories than afghan women hiding money.
Again, you say bitcoin has these real life use cases so that it can be used for real world transactions but that would be foolish because it's better to just hoard your wealth and never use it. If best practice with bitcoin is to horde it instead of use as a currency, then why would people in 3rd world countries be any different? You saying you'd go through a centralized institution like a bank or credit union to take out loans on your BTC seems counterintuitive to your talking about how great bitcoin is because it's decentralized. When it comes time to actually cash out, you don't have the balls to use the services of bitcoin to do it. That should tell you something. Again, people in poverty typically have to spend what funds they earn on day to day things in order to survive. Hoarding bitcoin doesn't feed a hungry mouth today. If best practice is to horde your wealth and never ever use bitcoin as a currency, then what's the ****ing point? It seems like bitcoin, is instead, used as a gambling casino for middle aged men with disposable income and the already wealthy. It either can and should be used a currency for day to day transactions or it should be treated like gold and you just hold onto it for it's speculative value that's hyped up based on people like you. Even SG had the balls to admit bitcoin has no real value at this point. You're all waiting for it's speculative value to reach that of gold based on internet hype. You all saying it can't be hacked yet people lose bitcoin all the time. Call it social engineering then. Bitcoin fails to address social engineering methods of losing your bitcoin. Y'all continue to gloss over the lack of consumer protection even. Memorize your bitcoin. OK. What great security feature that has nothing to do with bitcoin. What if you get in a wreck and sustain a head injury with a bad case of amnesia and need to pay that bill with bitcoin? Oops, your memory is drawing a blank on those secret keys.
Utility is not a faulty argument as much as it is a moving target. Utility changes based on your particular circumstance and where we are in time. If you zoom out you notice that barrier to entry and volatility have gone nothing but down (exponentially) since inception. Like most novel things, there is no reason to think this trend will reverse itself. As for currency, that will come with time. Bitcoin will eventually be the basis for most transactions in the world. The currency phase requires secondary and tertiary layer technologies that are on the way. In the meantime, if you want to preserve your wealth and your time horizon is 4-5+ years, there is simply no better option on offer.
That's the circumstance at present. It will not always be this way. BTC's value/price will eventually reach equilibrium. In the meantime, I will take advantage of my asset which is accruing in value. Who said it was? All of these utilities are present, but which one is most important to you depends on your circumstance. What are you even talking about? The services of bitcoin? Sure, I'd rather pay for everything in BTC right now, but I'm fully aware we're not there yet in terms of adoption. I'm taking these loans out in fiat to pay my mortgage and buy grocery etc not because I want to, but because have to. Speaking of balls, do you realize how much faith you have to have in something to take a loan out against it? I'm so confident that BTC is the superior asset, I'm unwilling to let go of it ever and I deeply regret the few times in the past I did sell. Again, different circumstances create different use cases. If you're dying from hunger, then yeah, trade your BTC so you don't die. That's base level stuff. As you accrue more wealth, you can start enjoying some of the other utility as you work your way up the hierarchy of needs. Addressed this already. At a fundamental level, it's digital gold. As new layers are built on top of the base layer, it will be able to function as a currency and be the backbone of transactions and valuation across most of the world. As far as speculation, that's how any novel thing works. We're in price discovery mode. Volatility is high. This has and will continue to subside with time. When I first got in I was speculating, trying to turn a quick buck. Now that I have done research, I see BTC is the best asset on offer and I won't store my wealth in any other medium. The value is derived not from hype, but from math and science. Everyone has their own risk tolerance level and can seek solutions which fit their own particular circumstance. If you're not prepared to take on the responsibility of learning about these services, BTC in general, and assuming the risk(s) associated with your choices, then I hope you stay away.
Most concerns raised here seem to fall into one of two categories: 1) attributing problems to BTC that have nothing to do with BTC 2) claiming BTC doesn't solve problem X when BTC was never meant to solve problem X There's an old saying... Bitcoin has no well-informed detractors... this thread really does reinforce that axiom.
When should I give up using dollars and convert all my money to BTC? Just give me an approximate date so I can be mentally ready...
Any money that you do not need within the next 4-5 years should absolutely be placed into BTC immediately. Edit: I'd add that caveat that you should not do so until you have a cold storage solution ready to go, never leave any BTC on an exchange or hot wallet.
You're going to have to explain how. Makes perfect sense to me. Whenever I have enough BTC to retire, I will take out loans against them to pay my expenses due the fact that 1) fiat is necessary (for now) and 2) BTC will continue appreciating. As for right now, any money anyone has that will not be needed in the next 4-5 years should be put into BTC. No contradiction there.
