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[ official ] Trump for president 2024

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Roc Paint, Nov 27, 2020.

  1. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    Beats working for a living. ;) ;) ;)
     
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  2. Commodore

    Commodore Member

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  3. CCorn

    CCorn Member

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    Catturd is all knowing
     
  4. astros123

    astros123 Member

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    Eminem hits the nail on the head
     
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  5. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    A deeper read ...

    The constitutional case that Donald Trump is already banned from being president
    Two conservative lawyers make a strong 14th Amendment argument. But the politics of their theory are very, very dicey.

    Two conservative legal scholars, members of the Federalist Society in good standing, have just published an audacious argument: that Donald Trump is constitutionally prohibited from running for president, and that state election officials have not only the authority but the legal obligation to prevent his name from appearing on the ballot.

    The legal paper, authored by University of Chicago professor William Baude and University of St. Thomas professor Michael Stokes Paulsen, centers on Section 3 of the 14th Amendment — a provision that limits people from returning to public office if they have since “engaged in insurrection or rebellion” or “given aid or comfort” to those who have. Baude and Paulsen argue that this clearly covers Trump’s behavior between November 2020 and January 2021.

    “The most politically explosive application of Section Three to the events of January 6, is at the same time the most straightforward,” Baude and Paulsen write. “Former President Donald J. Trump is constitutionally disqualified from again being President (or holding any other covered office) because of his role in the attempted overthrow of the 2020 election and the events leading to the January 6 attack.”

    The consequences of this argument are astonishing. On Baude and Paulsen’s read, Section 3 is “self-executing” — meaning it does not require an act of Congress to enter force and binds those public officials in the position to act on its dictates. Basically, if a single official anywhere in the US electoral system finds their constitutional analysis compelling, Baude and Paulsen urge them to act on it.

    “No official should shrink from these duties. It would be wrong — indeed, arguably itself a breach of one’s constitutional oath of office — to abandon one’s responsibilities of faithful interpretation, application, and enforcement of Section Three,” they write.

    As a matter of law, I find their arguments quite compelling. If you look at Section 3 in light of the historical evidence and how restrictions on eligibility for office work elsewhere in the Constitution, it’s hard to disagree with Baude and Paulen’s application of its text to Trump.

    But as a matter of politics, encouraging state election officials to go rogue and kick Trump off the ballot is a recipe for disaster. And that disconnect, between what the law says and the practical barriers to implementing it, speaks to some deep problems in American democracy that led to Trump’s insurrection in the first place.

     
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  6. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    cont.

    The (very strong) argument that Trump is ineligible for office

    Baude and Paulsen’s paper, set to be published in the University of Pennsylvania Law Review, focusing on plain-language readings on Section 3 of the 14th Amendment and the way its key terms were used in political discussion around the time of enactment.

    To get what they’re trying to do, it’s worth reading the text of Section 3 in full:

    Using historical and dictionary sources, Baude and Paulsen establish clear definitions for key terms. “Insurrection” and “rebellion,” in their view, “cover pretty much the entire terrain of large-scale unlawful resistance to government authority.” To have “engaged in” such conduct, they claim, means being “actively involved in the planning or execution of intentional acts of insurrection or rebellion” or “knowingly provided active, meaningful, voluntary, direct support for, material assistance to, or specific encouragement of such actions.”

    If this interpretation is correct, then the legal case against Trump is fairly straightforward — all established by facts in public reporting, evidence from the January 6 committee, and the recent federal indictment.

    In this well-known story, Trump was “actively involved” in an extralegal scheme to send fake electors to the Congress, and urged the vice president to unlawfully accept these fake electors over the real ones and crown Trump president. In service of his scheme, he provided “direct support for” and “specific encouragement” of the mob that ransacked the Capitol on January 6 in his speech, his tweets, private statements, and refusal to take actions (like calling in the National Guard) that could have stopped the mob.

    “The bottom line is that Donald Trump both ‘engaged in’ ‘insurrection or rebellion’ and gave ‘aid or comfort’ to others engaging in such conduct, within the original meaning of those terms as employed in Section Three of the Fourteenth Amendment,” Baude and Paulsen write. “If the public record is accurate, the case is not even close.”

    Normally, this kind of argument feels like a purely abstract exercise. Maybe there’s a strong case that Trump running for president is unconstitutional, but who’s actually going to stop him?

    The answer, according to Baude and Paulsen, is literally anybody in a legal position to do so.

    “Section Three’s language is language of automatic legal effect: ‘No person shall be’ directly enacts the officeholding bar it describes where its rule is satisfied,” they explain. “It does not grant a power to Congress (or any other body) to enact or effectuate a rule of disqualification. It enacts the rule itself.”

    To underscore the point, they compare Section 3’s prohibition to other constitutional restrictions on running for office. Article II, for example, says that “No Person...shall be eligible” for the presidency until they’ve turned 35. If a 20-year-old filed paperwork to run for the presidency, no one would object to state election officials keeping them off the ballot for being too young.

    More than that: They’d be legally obligated to block the 20 year old. Even if (let’s say) the members of a state board of elections think someone below the drinking age would make the best president in American history, the law is clear that such a person can’t hold office and thus can’t be permitted to run.

    The “shall be” language of Section 3 is identical to Article II’s, Baude and Paulsen note, and thus entails a similar obligation. Every official involved in the US election system, from a local registrar to members of Congress, has an obligation to determine if candidates for the presidency and other high office are prohibited from running under Section 3.

    “In principle: Section Three’s disqualification rule may and must be followed — applied, honored, obeyed, enforced, carried out — by anyone whose job it is to figure out whether someone is legally qualified to office,” they write.

    The fact that’s it easier to tell someone’s age than if they “engaged in” an act of “insurrection” shouldn’t matter. For Baude and Paulsen, the law is the law; if you don’t like it, pass a constitutional amendment to change it. The legal system provides a remedy if a person is wrongly disqualified under the 14th Amendment, just as it does if they are wrongly disqualified on any other grounds.

    The practical upshot of this analysis, they emphasize, is that officials need to start applying 14th Amendment analysis to candidates now. Trump, and any others found to have previously sworn an oath to uphold the Constitution and then engage in the plot to overturn the 2020 election, can and should be barred from running immediately.

    “It is not for us to say who all is disqualified by virtue of Section Three’s constitutional rule. That is the duty and responsibility of many officials, administrators, legislators, and judges throughout the country,” Baude and Paulsen conclude. “Where they are called on to decide eligibility to office, they are called on to enforce Section Three, applying the Constitution’s legal standard to the facts before them in a given instance.”
     
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  7. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    cont

    The (very strong) practical objection to their argument, and why it matters

    There is, Baude and Paulsen admit, a “small problem” with their argument: There’s legal precedent to the controversy.

    In 1869’s In re Griffin (a.k.a. Griffin’s Case), a circuit court judge named Salmon Chase (who would later go on to be the chief justice of the United States) ruled on a criminal appeal by a Black man, Caesar Griffin, convicted of attempted murder. Griffin did not contest the facts of the case, but argued that the judge who presided in the case, Hugh W. Sheffey, was not legally empowered to make a ruling.

    Before becoming a judge in 1866, Sheffey had served in the Virginia state legislature and then (subsequently) its Confederate equivalent. Griffin argued that Sheffey could not legally hold public office under Section 3 of the 14th Amendment, and therefore his conviction should be vacated.

    Chase disagreed. In his telling, stripping Sheffey and other former Confederates of their office and nullifying cases like Griffin’s would cause chaos throughout the Reconstruction South — and would be unfair to the former Confederates themselves. Therefore, the 14th Amendment simply can’t be read literally in the way Baude and Paulsen suggest.

    “Surely a construction which fails to accomplish the main purpose of the amendment, and yet necessarily works the mischief and inconveniences which have been described, and is repugnant to the first principles of justice and right embodied in other provisions of the constitution, is not to be favored, if any other reasonable construction can be found,” Chase held.

    This, Baude and Paulsen show, is a very bad argument. There is no other “reasonable construction” of Section 3 beyond the literal read, nor does Chase offer one that’s at all possible to square with the plain text of the amendment. Chase’s ruling simply decides that the law cannot possibly be what it looks like it is, because he thinks it’s bad and unfair to Confederates, and thus should be ignored.

    For this reason, Baude and Paulsen conclude that “Griffin’s Case is a case study in how not to go about the enterprise of faithful constitutional interpretation,” one that should be “hooted down the pages of history [and] purged from our constitutional understanding of Section Three.”

    This is all well and good as a matter of legal argumentation, but the problem is that Griffin’s Case exists as a matter of fact. Though Griffin was not a Supreme Court case, and thus Chase’s ruling is not binding on higher federal courts in the same manner as a ruling by the justices, Baude and Paulsen themselves admit that “Chase’s tendentious construction of Section Three has gone on to a surprisingly serious career as a precedent.”

    Moreover, state election officials are not federal judges; the very existence of Griffin’s Case, however poorly reasoned, creates real doubt as to whether they are legally empowered to do what Baude and Paulsen are telling them they have to do.

    This means that any serious attempt to implement the paper’s findings would give rise to significant legal challenge and political chaos. Imagine — just imagine — that local election administration officials in states like Georgia, Wisconsin, or Arizona acted on Baude and Paulsen’s advice and knocked Trump off the general election ballot.

    Even if these hypothetical officials’ actions were upheld by the Supreme Court, and that’s a very big if, Trump and his supporters would be unlikely to accept the ruling. Instead, they would be likely to see it as more proof that the system is rigged against them — and to act extralegally to install Trump in office.

    Best case, there’s a write-in campaign to put Trump in the presidency, giving rise to a constitutional crisis if he won (since the Supreme Court would have ruled him ineligible in upholding the state officials’ actions). Worst case — well, the January 6 riot could have been a lot bloodier than it already was.

    What this illustrates is that the Trump problem is very hard to solve through the law alone.

    The New York and federal indictments seem to have strengthened his hold on the Republican primary electorate rather than weakened it because a large percentage of the American electorate trusts Trump over neutral arbiters, like nonpartisan election officials and judges. So long as he commands this level of support, the law’s ability to bind Trump will be limited: Even if he’s convicted on federal charges, he could still win the election from his prison cell.

    Similarly, a serious effort to render Trump ineligible would run up against the practical problem that he is a near-lock to be the candidate of one of the two major parties — which, in a highly polarized system, means he’ll be the candidate of roughly half of the electorate. There is little reason to believe courts enjoy enough legitimacy among Republicans (or Democrats, for that matter) to be in a position to kick a major-party candidate off the ballot. The systemic consequences of such an attempt could well be devastating.

    This is not a healthy state of affairs. Democracies depend on the rule of law, on the words on the page being respected as the rules of the game. Baude and Paulsen make a very compelling case that those rules render Trump as ineligible as a wide receiver who stepped out of bounds during his route.

    But in a football game, the players feel obligated to respect the refs. In our fractured political system, it’s not obvious that the refs — be they election administrators or Supreme Court justices — enjoy the same level of legitimacy. We’ve already seen the consequences of this legitimacy deficit during the 2020 election; we could very well see them again in 2024.
     
  8. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    My take away ...

    Election officials in big cities in Red States can start the legal process to remove Trump from their state's 2024 ballot, citing Section 3 of the 14th Amendment. Trump can not win if he is not the ballot in Texas, Florida, and the other big Red States.

    The purple and blue states will also follow suit.

    This will eventually land in the USSC. The so-called "strict constitutionalists" conservative jurists will be put in a bind. I suspect that the conservative jurists will show their true colors, that they are just political hacks, and will find some random dude in 11th century England who had "thoughts" and will vote to keep Trump on the ballot.

    The USSC might surprise though. Overturning a state law they disagree with is one thing. Overturning a constitution amendment is another and might be a bridge too far for USSC jurist not named Thomas or Alito.
     
    #1948 No Worries, Aug 13, 2023
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2023
  9. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Member
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    https://althouse.blogspot.com/2023/08/the-nyt-tries-to-explain-upside-down.html

    August 13, 2023
    The NYT tries to explain the "upside-down reality where criminal charges act as political assets — at least for the purpose of winning the Republican nomination."
    by noreply@blogger.com (Ann Althouse)

    I'm reading "How Trump Benefits From an Indictment Effect/In polling, fund-raising and conservative media, the former president has turned criminal charges into political assets" (NYT).

    Before the first indictment, we're told, Fox News "had been weaning itself off Mr. Trump and elevating Gov. Ron DeSantis of Florida."

    Fox programming centered on themes and villains that Mr. DeSantis had built his brand on fighting: transgender athletes, Dr. Anthony Fauci and all things “woke.”

    But after Mr. Trump’s first indictment... {p}rogramming across conservative media centered on the idea that Mr. Trump was the victim of a justice system hijacked by Democrats. Mr. DeSantis’s fight against “wokeness” became passé — a matter of small stakes when set against Mr. Trump’s potential incarceration....

    That first indictment poured rocket fuel into Mr. Trump’s online fund-raising machine....

    For many of Mr. Trump’s supporters, the details of each successive indictment have blended together into a generic attack on the former president, creating something of a background noise they are largely tuning out....

    For some Republicans, the mere fact that Democrats were investigating and charging Mr. Trump with crimes was added reason to support him. And the fact that Mr. Trump’s rivals have not been indicted was a cause of suspicion.
    Good. I'm glad this is backfiring. I have never been a Trump supporter, but I hate the criminalization of politics.

    Posted by Ann Althouse at 7:16 AM
     
  10. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    WRT Section 3 of the 14th Amendment ...

    My first hot take was this was either an op ed or some "academic" pursuit. On further discovery neither was the case. Here is the 14th Amendment in recent action:

    Judge removes Griffin from office for engaging in the January 6 insurrection

    SANTA FE — A New Mexico judge ordered Otero County Commissioner Couy Griffin be removed from office, effective immediately, ruling that the attack on the Capitol was an insurrection and that Griffin’s participation in it disqualified him under Section 3 of the 14th Amendment. This decision marks the first time since 1869 that a court has disqualified a public official under Section 3, and the first time that any court has ruled the events of January 6, 2021 an insurrection.

    Section 3 of the 14th Amendment, also known as the Disqualification Clause, bars any person from holding federal or state office who took an “oath…to support the Constitution of the United States” as an “officer of any State” and then “engaged in insurrection or rebellion” or gave “aid or comfort” to insurrectionists. Griffin, as an Otero County Commissioner since January 2019, took an oath to “support and uphold the Constitution and laws of the State of New Mexico, and the Constitution of the United States.”

    “This is a historic win for accountability for the January 6th insurrection and the efforts to disrupt the peaceful transfer of power in the United States. Protecting American democracy means ensuring those who violate their oaths to the Constitution are held responsible,” said CREW President Noah Bookbinder. “This decision makes clear that any current or former public officials who took an oath to defend the U.S. Constitution and then participated in the January 6th insurrection can and will be removed and barred from government service for their actions.”

    Under New Mexico law, any private citizen of the state may file a lawsuit to remove a disqualified county official from office. A group of New Mexico residents were represented in this case by Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington and the New Mexico-based law firms of Freedman Boyd Hollander and Goldberg P.A, Dodd Law Office, LLC, and the Law Office of Amber Fayerberg, LLC, as well as by Cohen Milstein Sellers & Toll PLLC.

    “Judge Mathew’s decision is fully supported by the facts and the law and justice achieves a needed measure of accountability,” said Freedman Boyd Hollander and Goldberg P.A Partner Joe Goldberg.

    “The Court’s findings that Mr. Griffin engaged in repeated efforts to mobilize a mob and incite them to violence on January 6, 2021 amply support the Court’s conclusion that he is unqualified under the Fourteenth Amendment to hold public office,” said Daniel Small of Cohen Milstein Sellers & Toll PLLC.

    An eyewitness to Griffin’s behavior testified that Griffin also took on a leadership position within the mob at the Capitol on January 6th. Videos of Griffin’s speeches en route to Washington, DC for the “Stop the Steal“ rally showed Griffin’s willingness to stop, by any means necessary, a Biden presidency. In the days after the attack, Griffin continued to defend the insurrection, boasted about his involvement, and suggested a possible repeat of it in the future. Following a federal indictment for his behavior, he was convicted of breaching and occupying restricted Capitol grounds.

    “January 6, 2021 was a dark day in our history. The court’s ruling today is a historic moment for our country. Mr. Griffin’s removal and bar from holding office again is a step towards obtaining justice and restoring the rule of law,” said Dodd Law Office, LLC President Christopher Dodd.

    “The Court’s decision to remove and bar Mr. Griffin from public office represents a crucial step toward restoring the rule of law in our country and protecting our democracy from future attack,” said the Law Office of Amber Fayerberg, LLC Founder Amber Fayerberg.
     
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  11. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Member

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    I just hate politicians committing crimes. Seems that used to be a thing.
     
  12. deb4rockets

    deb4rockets Member
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    There are those who never have a bad thing to say about Trump. Some of those claim not to support him, but it's shady when they find anything and everything to post that tries to make Biden or Democrats look bad. I guess a guy indicted for what will probably be nearly 100 different charges around the country for different crimes will always be the good guy in their eyes. Rape, treason, election fraud, business fraud, tax fraud, stealing classified documents, obstruction of justice, sedition, and inciting coups are no big deal.
     
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  13. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Member

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    If Trump didn't want politics to be "criminalized," I guess he shouldn't have committed crimes. That's all I got to say.
     
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  14. astros123

    astros123 Member

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  15. StupidMoniker

    StupidMoniker I lost a bet

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    No, I don't think Biden was breaching voting systems after the 2020 election. That would be weird.
     
  16. astros123

    astros123 Member

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    #1956 astros123, Aug 13, 2023
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2023
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  17. astros123

    astros123 Member

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  18. edwardc

    edwardc Member

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  19. astros123

    astros123 Member

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    They got em in Georgia
     
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  20. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

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    It will probably take Trump losing this election and several more MAGA candidates losing before the party as a whole realizes this. Even then there are likely going to continue to be die hards who in 2030 will still be talking about how Trump was cheated out of 2020 (and by then 2024.)
     
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