Not many observations. Just emotion and name calling.. "genocidal mercs". "forced labor cannon fodder". "gang raped by Putin-Trump foot soldiers". "gangland empire". "economy runs on alcohol and looted washing machines". Chomsky. "very vapid"
Actually a lot of observations - most of which aren't really arguable because i think you agree that 1) the vast majority of Ukrainians are better off as free people rather than crushed by Russia (which is quite literally waging a war of genocide and wat crimes unless you dispute this -do you?) 2) their ability to exercise their right of self determination matters 3) Chomsky was obviously extremely, overwhelmingly wrong to believe that Russias shitty gangster army of rapists and torturers and mercs (these things are all true regardless if they provoke an emotional response) would inevitably dispatch Ukraine in short order. Do you actually with any ny of these points? Do you think Russia bombing playgrounds and opera houses and torturing people is just made up? I don't think you do i just think you're mad that some if the same assholes who were wrong about Iraq happen to be on the right side of this issue, while the "antiwar under any circumstances" folks are on the same side as Trump, Putin, Orban and the rest of the worst people in the world
Where do you get your non mainstream news? The only media that repeatedly claims Russia is actually winning is ****in Tucker Carlson man. Look around you. Realize you are in the wrong place
There are a lot of right wingers probably temporarily opposing sending unlimited arms to Ukraine. If the Ukrainians lose military which seems likely they will switch on a dime and accuse Biden of losing Ukraine to help with the 2024 election. One of the most famous international relations experts in the US is Professor John Meersheimer. He called it correctly in 2014 (https://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/09/opinion/dont-arm-ukraine.html). For his thoughts now. https://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2023/06/13/18856571.php Meersheimer is for the most part NOW not allowed in the mainstream news Sam apparently limits himself to. He believes Ukraine will lose as it is outgunned almost ten to one in artillery and the current war is one of attrition like WW I. Also at this point Ukraine's population is about 1/3 of Russia and it has no appreciable domestic arms industry. It should be noted that he is not a right winger. He supported Bernie Sanders in 2020.He has a great command of military affairs as he went to West Point and served 5 years in the USAF before going for his doctorate in foreign affairs. Interestingly he argued back in 1993 on the dissolution of the Soviet Union against much of the mainstream US government opinion that Ukraine was making a mistake in giving back its nuclear weapons to Russia. He is generally considered one of the three most famous academic experts in Foreign Relations.
It's not temporary - the right wing worship of Putin goes back about fifteen years or more. They've been dry humping him on Fox News for decadea. At least since Obama but probably before. Where do you think this **** comes from. This makes sense! They are ideologically the same. Authoritarian kleptocracy - that is axis of Trumputin. Please get the facts straight. Putin is not the heir to Che Guevara - he is quite literally a czarist and also - an all around piece of ****. This is just objectively true, you won't admit it but it is. Why do you expect anyone to take you seriously if you won't admit it?
Ok pick on a minor issue as to exactly how long right wingers and the GOP conservatives have backed Putin. The point of this thread should what is in the best life interests of the average Ukrainian. Turning Ukraine into Syria or post WW II Germany or Iraq post Iraq Wars I and II is not in their interest. Hey the military industrialist are cleaning up and one stated reason for the war is to weaken Russia according to Defense Secretary Austin and other US officials.. Zelinski and the ruling oligarchs in Ukraine will do ok one way another.
The fact that Putin's Russia are right wing bad actors is not a "minor issue" it's the whole issue and why we're talking about it in the first place! Jesus man look at yourself. Horseshoe theory in action
Glynch I just have to add real quick that the number one factor that led to the modern era of forever wars starting with Afghanistan, then Iraq was the election of 2000. In 2000 there was a legit movement on the far left led by many of the same people you follow now for your political insights (many of whom I also follow) that put their vote towards the hopeless cause of Ralph Naders campaign which led to Bush getting elected. Dude I get it… our democratic process isn’t perfect and we sure as hell don’t have a perfect record with wars. This situation though is different and the stakes are wayyy too high right now to not look at these issues with a much more pragmatic and less ideological purist view. If you do care about democracy I would recommend also listening to other voices on the left such as Thom Hartman who has a close relationship with Bernie Sanders as well. He has alot of good sources on Ukraine that call into his show quite often and really contextualize quite well where things are and where America should fit into the short term and long term calculus. Noam Chomsky and others are not great sources on this topic. The stakes are too high to not be pragmatic these next couple years man. You don’t have to trust the military industrial complex or even the Democratic Party in order to at least view the facts in a vacuum that overwhelmingly point to it being the right thing to do now but you are correct in your assessment that yes there is risk that in the future Ukraine does fold and turns on the US. That’s a real risk I’m sure Biden and co. worry about as well. Which is why they have certain technologies that folks scratch their heads at why Biden won’t just give the Ukrainians. All that being said though I disagree with you and your source that Ukraine is for sure going to fold and turn on us. The much likelier negative outcome would be Eastern Ukraine splits off into Russia and Western Ukraine essentially becomes part of the West and a key part of our alliance moving forward. Kyiv is the size of Chicago. Liv is a huge city as well. Even just Western Ukraine coming into the alliance would be a big deal and they’d have every incentive in the world economically and from a safety standpoint to stay a democracy within the EU and NATO. There would be no incentive at all for even corrupt oligarchs in Kyiv (which I don’t think they have like you are led to believe. The corrupt oligarchs are owned by Putin and won’t reside in Ukraine ever after the war) to not want to be part of the EU if they are parting with Putin after the war. If you stop and just think things through this is a pretty easy call and worth the risk which yes I agree there is some. Just because the US was wrong before with Iraq doesn’t mean they are wrong here. And please for the love of god have some level of critical thinking when following folks like Noam and especially Cornell West who will surely be trying to appeal to you in the coming months. American Democracy isn’t perfect but it’s the best option we have currently…. And can be made better by the left being part of it. Go look at all the autocratic nations out there and tell me which ones have a better economy and quality of life than we have.
Do you think the Ukrainians will be better off just allowing Russia to take them over? The Ukrainians certainly don’t and is why they keep on fighting. The US doesn’t have troops over there. This isn’t Vietnam, Afghanistan or Iraq. The actual fighting is being done by Ukrainians and they very much want to fight. Your argument seems to be that the Ukrainians would be better off just surrendering to the Russians. If they actually believed that they could. They could just collapse like the Afghan military did even thought it was heavily supported by us. There is no indication they would do that. And really you think Zelensky is an oligarch? He was a small time actor and comedian who was elected to take on the corruption of the oligarchs.
And the US military isn’t fighting in Ukraine. I don’t often agree with Christie but his point is to avoid the blood of American sins having to fight because of the US abandons Ukraine it’s likely that the PRC will decide to invade Taiwan. Arming Ukraine is a a message to the PRC and is done so by without committing US troops.
This explains Putin's motivation, in 2014 and 2022. This does not imply that Putin was not acting like a rogue state at the time.
I have liked Chomsky's insights over the years, but he gets into the a record player loop where the US is always the greater evil and we gotta leave poor Russia n China alone. A bit like Assange in their scorned determination to bring the US down a notch.
What a Russian freed Bakhmut looks like Russia has a history of treating Ukraine poorly. See Holodomor where millions of Ukrainians were starved to death by Stalin. After the Soviet Union dissolved, Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine entered into the Budapest Memorandum where the US, the UK and Russia agreed to be prohibited from threatening or using military force or economic coercion against Ukraine, Belarus, and Kazakhstan. Russia has not kept their word. This war only ends when Russia is driven back to their 2014 borders and has its war machine in need of a decade to rebuild. Russia has to sue for peace on Ukrainian terms, which includes NATO membership for Ukraine and NATO bases in Ukraine, since Russia's signature on any peace agreement is meaningless.
This. I wish Biden Admin would be a better job of communicating this is about the larger fight between the Illiberal World Order (China, Russia, Iran, and NK) and Liberal World Order. People need to grow up and stop being naive about how the world works.
Feels like the far left is just unable to keep two thoughts in their heads…. Iraq 2.0/War on Terror was a geopolitical boondoggle and standing up militarily to Russia/China/Iran/NK is prudent.
The idea among, a thankfully tiny, segment on the left that they know better than actual Ukrainians what is in their best interests is unbelievably arrogant and ridiculous. The people of Ukraine are demonstrating, with their lives, what they believe to be in their best interests.
Do we still buy uranium from Russia? I remember a house bill was introduced but couldn't find where it passed. Thanks in advance.
