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Ukraine

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by NewRoxFan, Nov 25, 2018.

  1. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Member

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  2. Invisible Fan

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    I bet Russia is feeling their own supply crunch as well. Their plan is based upon numerical advantages in personnel but they're relying on similar stocks of banned black market electronics their allies are largely cut off from.

    The war defined through these parameters are pretty distinct though hard questions are coming from American military planners on whether Taiwan's hypothetical defense or counter insurgency strategy requires the same depleting munitions.
     
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  3. Salvy

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  4. dmoneybangbang

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    To defeat an adversarial country that has been engaging in their own imperialism. Most Americans don't realize how big cenrtal asia is and how much of it is a vassal state to Russia.

    Even more big picture, Russia and our main adversary, China, are becoming closer and closer. The $75 billion was a message to China who is gearing up to invade Taiwan. Lastly, $75 billion over 2 years is a fraction of the US budget and a fraction of a fraction of our GDP.
     
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  5. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Member

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  6. tinman

    tinman 999999999
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  7. Exiled

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    with over 300 Billions of frozen/seized Russian assets, Russian central bank is actually paying for it
     
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  8. basso

    basso Member
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  9. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

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    I do find it interesting those people who are critical of the US involvement with Ukraine bringing up Zelensky upset about Ukraine not being allowed into NATO as a criticism.

    Weren’t many of y’all saying not that long ago that Russia has to invade becaue Ukraine was going to join NATO?
     
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  10. Ubiquitin

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    I similarly don’t get the perspective. People support Russia not because they like Russia but because they hate democrats and anything democrats support must be wrong. Even territorial sovereignty.
     
  11. dmoneybangbang

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    @Space Ghost doesnt seem to have an ideology. At best it’s contrarian and at worst it’s just trolling.
     
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  12. Space Ghost

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    From my perspective, I feel like there is too much disinformation and assumption, so therefore I try to approach it from a pragmatic well ground standpoint.
    For example: Why did Putin invade Ukraine in the first place? We can cherrypick the reasoning to establish our base case, whether its to 'reunited the greater Soviet Union' or the belief that NATO continues to expansion or other reasons like the fear of Russia invading Europe. The unestablished truth is going to lie in the middle. My belief has been it was a prime opportunity for multiple reasons. I can't hypothesize and run off on an alternate reality scenario that will never exist. (such as Putin invaded because Biden is a weak president; Trump would have never allowed this).

    That said, I didn't think Russia would invade. War is always preventable and it happens when BOTH sides of the conflict refuse to compromise, thus the decision makers are content with destroying an entire generation.

    Ukraine is not eligible to join NATO. That said, I can't say if NATO would vote them in. Whoever is telling Zelensky that Ukraine can join NATO when its in conflict is the problem. I am starting to believe Zelensky is a poor leader for Ukraine. If Zelensky really believes Ukraine will be allowed to join NATO during a conflict, this is a sure sign he is not an intelligent leader and he is indeed a puppet. He has made multiple comments that I find very concerning to be a leader of a NATO nation.

    And then there is the plain facts. Russia is not a direct threat to our sovereignty AND those who may feel Russia is a threat (Europe countries), they can fund the Ukrainians by purchasing the weapons from the US and give them to Ukraine. Its 'not that much money' according to some. If its not that much money, then Europe can afford it. We can keep that money here and put it to good use.

    For those who feel like the indirect threat by Russia is justifiable for us to be involved, it works both ways. The indirect threat by the US to Russia gives them reason enough to war with anyone they please.
     
  13. dmoneybangbang

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    Russia isn’t presenting a direct threat to America which is why we are only send arms and providing intelligence.

    You need to understand this isn’t all about Russia, but a greater message to China.

    And again…. $75 billion over almost two years isn’t a big amount relative to the US budget or US GDP, it’s actually minuscule.
     
  14. Ubiquitin

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    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum
     
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  15. basso

    basso Member
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  16. rocketsjudoka

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    Except that Putin did invade Ukraine for all your not positing an alternate reality and being pragmatic you’re trying to
    Justify his invasion.

    Have you considered that Putin is just a terrible leader who made a terrible decision?

    As far as Zelensky being a bad leader he is the leader of Ukraine fighting a horrific war. Of course he’s upset he’s not getting as much support that he thinks he should. Your argument would be akin to saying Washington was a terrible leader of the Continental Armt in 1779 becaue he was complaining the French hadn’t given him everything he wanted.
     
  17. arkoe

    arkoe (ง'̀-'́)ง

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    I very seriously doubt he doesn't understand the NATO requirements that all border disputes have to be settled before consideration for joining, much less not being in a current war. I view him beating that drum more as a way to continue being in NATO's ear for additional support and his own propaganda purposes than seriously believing that NATO will admit Ukraine under current conditions.
     
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  18. Invisible Fan

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    Part of the advantages of having a dominant air force. You don't need a mavic dropping bombs on tanks when an airstrike will do.

    I do think loitering munitions like our switchblades cover the same featureset of other drones like their jury rigged maviks but cost/utility is more their problem than ours for now. Turks and Israelis probably have better iterations of small drones in use than we do.
     
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  19. basso

    basso Member
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  20. Commodore

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