You’re missing his point. You are correct that Stone has not blundered at tanking, accumulating high draft picks, and accumulating cap space - subsequently we are a team with a lot of upside and flexibility going forward. The thing is, that is not much of a standard! Given the freedom to completely tank 3 seasons, 30/30 GM’s would have a team with a clean cap sheet and lots of high potential young players. Like he said, the role of GM or coach is not like a teacher or nurse — where the default is you don’t get fired unless you are absolutely really bad at the job. This is professional sports. There are only 30 GM jobs, and there are many smart, talented, charismatic, qualified, and experienced assistant GM’s and execs waiting in the wings. 3 years is a If after 3 years, there isn’t real evidence to believe your GM or coach is in the top 15 of the 30 in the league, if they haven’t differentiated themselves by doing *better* than most other GM’s would do, you fire them and move on to the next candidate who might.
Spoiler Head Coaches •Stephen Silas •Ime Udoka (Re-)Signings •Mason Jones(two-way) •Kenny Wooten(claimed off waivers) •Sterling Brown(1 year, $1.6M) •Bruno Caboclo •Jae’Sean Tate(2 years, $2.96M) •DeMarcus Cousins(1 year, $2.3M) •Gerald Green(1 year, $2.56M) •Jerian Grant(2 years, $4M) •Trevelin Queen(E10) •Brodric Thomas(E10) •Trey Mourning(E10) •William McDowell-White(two-way) •Josh Reaves(E10) •Brodric Thomas(two-way) •Ray Spalding(two-way) •Justin Patton(two-way) •Anthony Lamb(two-way) •Mason Jones(10-day) •Armoni Brooks(two-way) •DaQuan Jeffries(claimed off waivers) •Khyri Thomas(10-day) •Cam Oliver(10-day) •Cam Reynolds •Khyri Thomas •Matthew Hurt(two-way) •Daniel Theis(4 years, $36M) •David Nwaba(3 years, $15M) •Daishen Nix •Tyler Bey •Armoni Brooks •Anthony Lamb(two-way) •Dante Exum(3 years, $8.1M) •Tyler Bey(two-way) •Armoni Brooks(two-way) •Marcus Foster •Christian Vital •Daishen Nix(two-way) •Mfiondu Kabengele •Garrison Mathews(claimed off waivers; signed to two-way) •Trevelin Queen(two-way) •DeJon Jarreau(10-day) •Anthony Lamb(two-way) •Trevor Hudgins(two-way) •Jae’Sean Tate(3 years, $22.1M) •Bruno Fernando(two-way) •Willie Cauley-Stein •Trhae Mitchell •Darius Days(claimed off waivers) •Pierria Henry •Boban Marjanovic •Willie Cauley-Stein(10-day) •D.J. Augustin •Willie Cauley-Stein •Darius Days(two-way) •Trevor Hudgins(two-way) •Fred VanVleet (3 years, $130M) •Dillon Brooks (4 years, $80M) •Jock Landale (4 years, $32M) •Jeff Green (1 year, $6M) Released/Cut/Waived •Trevelin Queen •Jerian Grant •Trey Mourning •Josh Reaves •William McDowell-White •Gerald Green •Bruno Caboclo •Chris Clemons •DeMarcus Cousins •Mason Jones •Justin Patton •Ben McLemore •Khyri Thomas •DaQuan Jeffries •Matthew Hurt •Tyler Bey •Khyri Thomas •Sekou Doumbouya •Tyler Bey •Marcus Foster •Christian Vital •Dante Exum •Anthony Lamb •Mfiondu Kabengele •Danuel House Jr. •Armoni Brooks •D.J. Augustin •Enes Freedom •John Wall •Ty Jerome •Mo Harkless •Theo Maledon •Trhae Mitchell •Pierria Henry •Willie Cauley-Stein •Derrick Favors •Boban Marjanovic •Danny Green •John Wall •Justin Holiday •Daishen Nix Trades •Robert Covington to Portland for Trevor Ariza, Isaiah Stewart & a 2021 1st round pick •Trevor Ariza, Isaiah Stewart, cash & a 2027 2nd round pick to Detroit for Christian Wood, a 2021 1st round pick & 2021 2nd round pick •2021 2nd round pick & cash to Sacramento for Kenyon Martin Jr. •Russell Westbrook to Washington for John Wall & a 2023 1st round pick •HOU: Victor Oladipo(from IND), Dante Exum(from CLE), Rodions Kurucs(from BRK), 2021 1st round pick(swap; did not convey), 2022 1st round pick, 2022 1st round pick(MIL), 2023 1st round pick(swap; did not convey), 2024 1st round pick, 2025 1st round pick(swap), 2026 1st round pick, 2027 1st round pick(swap) IND: Caris LeVert(from BRK), 2023 2nd round pick(from HOU) BRK: James Harden(from HOU), 2024 2nd round pick(from CLE) CLE: Jarrett Allen(from BRK), Taurean Prince(from BRK) •2024 2nd round pick(GS) to Cleveland for Kevin Porter Jr. •P.J. Tucker, Rodions Kurucs, 2021 2nd round pick & 2022 1st round pick to Milwaukee for D.J. Augustin, D.J. Wilson, 2021 1st round pick & 2023 1st round pick •Victor Oladipo to Miami for Avery Bradley, Kelly Olynyk & a 2022 2nd round pick(swap; did not convey) •2022 1st round pick(DET) & 2023 1st round pick(WAS) to Oklahoma City for Alperen Şengün •Cash to Brooklyn for Sekou Doumbouya & 2024 2nd round pick •Daniel Theis to Boston for Bruno Fernando, Enes Freedom & Dennis Schroder •Christian Wood to Dallas Mavericks for Sterling Brown, Trey Burke, Marquese Chriss, Boban Marjanović & Wendell Moore Jr. •Wendell Moore Jr. to Minnesota for TyTy Washington Jr., 2025 2nd round pick & 2027 2nd round pick •Sterling Brown, Trey Burke, Marquese Chriss & David Nwaba to Oklahoma City for Derrick Favors, Maurice Harkless, Ty Jerome, Theo Maledon, 2026 2nd round pick & 2026 2nd round pick •Bruno Fernando & Garrison Mathews to Atlanta for Justin Holiday, Frank Kaminsky, 2024 2nd round pick & 2025 2nd round pick •HOU: John Wall(from LAC), Danny Green(from MEM), 2023 1st round pick(swap via MIL) LAC: Eric Gordon(from HOU), 2023 1st round pick(swap via MIL), 2024 2nd round pick(from MEM), 2024 2nd round pick(from MEM via TOR), 2027 2nd round pick(from MEM), MEM: Luke Kennard(from LAC), 2026 2nd round pick(swap; from LAC) •Kenyon Martin Jr. To LA for two future 2nd round picks •Josh Christopher to Memphis (part of sign and trade for Dillon Brooks??) •Usman Garuba, TyTy Washington Jr., $1.1M cash, 2025 2nd round pick(MIN) & 2028 2nd round pick(HOU) to Atlanta for Alpha Kaba •??? to Brooklyn for Patty Mills and a future 2nd round pick •Patty Mills & undisclosed draft compensation to Oklahoma City Draft •2020: 2-52 Kenyon Martin Jr. •2021: 1-2 Jalen Green •2021: 1-16 Alperen Sengun •2021: 1-23 Usman Garuba •2021: 1-24 Josh Christopher •2022: 1-3 Jabari Smith Jr. •2022: 1-17 Tari Eason •2022: 1-29 TyTy Washington Jr. •2023: 1-4 Amen Thompson •2023: 1-20 Cam Whitmore
Totally disagree with you. What you're asking is why isn't Stone excellent. There is no way he can be excellent when we don't know the biggest part of the report card: what is the young core made of? What's our identity when we try to win? Who joins this team after there's some semblance of a professional team in place? There's absolutely nothing he could have done in Phase 1 for me to be able to crown him as an excellent GM. It was not an attainable status. This was simply a "don't f*ck it up" stage and LOTS of GM's have f*cked it up in the past. None have turned this situation around faster or materially better. You're asking him to do something that's not possible. Your favorite GM would not have done anything objectively better thus far. You fire your GM simply based on input vs output. What he's done with the cards he's been dealt. Who was better than us 3 years into a full rebuild without landing a #1 pick? No one. Absolutely no one excelled as per your definition. Also, no it's not common as you make it seem that a team takes just 3 years to clear the cap ($66m), draft a ton of young high potential players, have some future draft picks left in the bag and secure an elite HC. That's clean work. That's not a below average GM as you make it seem. That's at least above average work.
Those signings are straight up brutal, but the trades are not as bad as I thought; especially some of the early ones. A lot of poor asset management. All in all, especially with how he handled the Silas situation, i think he’s a below average GM. Drafting good talent with high draft picks is one thing; developing and maximizing that talent is another.
Well can we give it some time to see what this talent he brought it turns into? We got the coach and system now for them to develop in. Can we see what it turns out to be then pass judgement? Its like everybody wants this perfection right now, they are unwilling to let the process happen. They want us to make moves this summer to be contenders. That is unrealistic. Im looking forward to this next phase of the rebuild.
I hear you, and if they make some moves to help this roster before the season starts, then we should give them credit for that. But the bar is not a contending roster this season. No one has said that. The bar is to become a competitive team, and win 35-40 games. I don’t think the current roster is good enough, so I’m hoping they have another move or two left in them.
That sounds like a good number to shoot for. Yeah if he can get these deals done where it still gives us cap space (which i think he should be given some credit for), I think another move or two would be coming to add more to the team. I agree some shooting would be helpful. We HAVE to get some improvement from our young core players. This is the year they have to show it on the court.
I think you’re missing the point that even though yes he’s functionally capable and has the technical skills (cap, contracting etc.) as well as planning process needed. However this pattern of mistakes in the end boils down to an alarming disposition shown with his ego and relationships. His misread of Lopez was a costly exercise in overconfidence and lack of trust built with his counterpart. This was shown also with the Oladipo trade, and both EG trade attempts where his credibility came into question, and a flashing red light that his ego led him to believe he was going to fool everyone else. If you go look at the Harvard Business’ negotiations methodology by Dr. Ury you’ll clearly see holes in Stone’s skills and more importantly his social versatility even as an outsider looking in. If it seems like nit picking it is but as I pointed out this isn’t teaching or being a nurse. This is the arguably the most desired position in the world. Most would prefer to manage negotiations in professional sports than even international government negotiations on climate, war, etc. In my role in corporate America, I am held to this high of standard with the couple million a year I negotiate. Why wouldn’t Stone be held to the same standard as me?
Stone only looks terrible at the moment to those deluded fans who continue to think this team should miraculously rise from the tank-ashes like some powerful phoenix and begin contending for titles immediately. Those of us who expected a ground-up tank job to keep us out of contention for a minimum of 5 years like the potential we see a couple of years down the road with the young core and whatever vets will be added between now and then. FVV might be gone. Brooks might be gone as well. These are stopgap signings made to bring in professionalism (Van Vleet) and attitude (Brooks), likely insisted on by Udoka so the core can see what that looks like after three years under Silas. TL;DR: Stop hoping we're going to magically contend this year or next and things begin to make a lot more sense. Contention will come later.
What if the expectations from fans is actually just quality asset management, and player development? Are we not allowed to hold those as important priorities? (and yes, Stone is managing those who manage and perform player development. Don't forget that Silas, Lucas, etc. all reported up to Stone in the end). I'm really sorry that you and others are interpreting that as "magical contention" but that's actually not true at all in terms of what people are voicing concerns over.
You can tank hard and still have a good culture, but it is harder to do. The Spurs did it this season and there have been others. However, I agree with your general premise that it is a lot harder to do. Some of this is on the Rockets, for fanning the flames about James Harden joining the Rockets. He was never going to join the Rockets. Same with Brook Lopez. He was never going to leave a title contender to join the Rockets over a few million dollars more a season. It was a fools errand by Raffy Stone to make trades to try to make it happen. It cost the Rockets assets. Is it the end of the world? No - but it was a mistake. Huh? Jeremy Sochan DID get better and did develop over the course of the season. He was a terrible offensive player when he was drafted, and he showed a lot of improvement and promise. The Spurs have a few guys that have greatly improved over the last few seasons. As for Dennis Rodman, he worked out harder than just about any basketball player to ever lace up in an NBA game. Also, if Sochan was like Rodman, Pops never would have drafted Sochan - he HATED Rodman and dumped him. The Spurs did not have any players that did not give effort, they would not target those players and got rid of the ones that lacked effort. There are always going to be exceptions, but a lack of effort isn't what doomed the Spurs. Agreed - it is very hard to have a highly motivated team when you purposely tank. What makes it worse? Hiring a rookie coach that is known for being a nice guy, but not well structured or a disciplinarian. What is even worse than that? Bringing on players with personality disorders like KPJ and Christian Wood. What is worse than even that? Having a GM that over-rides his head coach and excuses players from practices and punishments. All of this nonsense has had a negative impact on the young players development - we will see in a few years if they will get over it. I think most people accept what the Rockets record was for the last three years. However, no - the Rockets could have punished young players for a lack of effort had they wanted to - but the GM told the HC who to play and for how long. KPJ and Green knew they were getting over. The Rockets were never getting a franchise player in free agency in 2023. It wasn't happening and other than talking up the Summer of 2023, it was obvious. If you believe John Wall - KPJ and Green didn't hate it that much, they felt they were lucky and getting over. Also - let's not compare Raffy Stone to Pat Riley or Jerry West or even Bob Meyers...... those guys **** out more basketball knowledge each morning than Stone and Fertitta have combined. First, you don't know if the culture has changed - ultimately players like Green and Smith and KPJ have been part of a different culture, and we will see how they handle the change going forward. The hiring of Udoka was a strong coup for Stone. The issue isn't the players the Rockets added - it is about the cost. Same with the trades. Stone has waited too long to trade assets, he has mismanaged others - he hasn't been efficient and has thrown away assets. That is going to eventually catch up to the Rockets if it continues to happen. Okay? The standard isn't whether a fan could do a better job though. One of the fastest and most successful rebuilds? The Spurs rebuild was faster........ the Portland rebuild will certainly be faster as well. I am sure I am forgetting some. Our fate will largely rest on whether someone on the Rockets roster becomes a top 5 player in the league.
It's interesting. I have been struggling to answer the question of whether or not I might lose my job if I made the mistakes that Stone made. Especially in the negotiation blunders. One example I can think of is if I was negotiating with lets say Apple (not a client so I can use as a hypothetical), and while in the proposal stage of negotiations I felt Apple's team stalling out so I told them that Microsoft would be taking the dates off the calendar that they'd need for this work so they had to sign by end of the week. Then Apple decided to walk on me costing me the deal. There's a ton of variables there (was Apple really even interested, etc.), but in the end if I negotiated like this in my job it could very well cost me my job. So why when Stone broadcasts it out that "The Rockets have multiple 1st rounders offered to them for Oladipo" are we willing to just pass this off as a thing that he should be allowed to do that neither you or me would have credibility left after doing in our roles? Much less a situation where it costs my company valuable costs in the proposal phase for a deal I was never going to win.... like asking my boss to approve travel to Hawaii to meet with Apple, and then he finds out that Apple never really intended to seriously consider our company as a partner. So I get why from a fans perspective why this could seem like nit picking stuff, but from the perspective of a trained negotiator (which for fcks sake an NBA GM better have some experience and training as) like... people get fired in corporate America for making these type of mistakes. So why would we be flamed for expecting that level of acumen?
Stone has been fine. You can see the logic behind almost all of the moves, and he moves in a rational manner. His cap maneuverability illustrates a savviness to it, which is what you want. Alot of these criticisms are lacking the benefit of having all available information that Stone does. I suspect if he was put on trial for these "mistakes", his testimony would reveal, with the information available the time, and choices available, he likely made the least worst choices. We are in a good position moving forward, and frankly some of the criticism's, if not done, or done differently, would have compromised some of the strengths we now have moving forward.
Meh. No one is arguing that Stone is a great GM, but you also can't sit here and say he is a bad one because we don't know. Just because the Spurs can "tank with culture" doesn't mean that is the standard.... also helps they got to draft first this year. Quibbling over "mismanaging" assets that weren't very valuable in the first place garners mild eye rolls. Daniel Theis? Barely registers or matters. We still don't know if Green over Mobley was right. Lot to be determined and Stone's evaluations will actually begin earnest now that we are done blatantly tanking.
The relevant question isn't "are we sure Stone is bad?". You're right that the answer to that question is that we do not know. He could be bad or he could be average. The actual relevant question is "are we certain Stone is not a *great* GM". At this point, at least in my opinion, yes I am sure Stone is not a top 10 GM. The development / cultural deficit, Stone's poor presence as meaningful figurehead for the organization, and the unforced blunders in free agency this offseason are cumulatively dispositive on that front for me. A top 10 GM would not have those issues. And IMO, just like with coaches, once you are sure a guy isn't a real advantage for you in that position, you fire them (or just move on from them when their contract is up, which is soon for Stone I believe) and try the next candidate who might be great, and if he is, you try to keep them for decades. Replacement level coaches or GM are not scarce. You can hire one at will. If the team has a good year, and Stone ends up looking like an ~average GM retrospectively, but we've already fired him... we won't have regrets, we'll have lost out on nothing. We can hire an average-level GM from the pool of candidates any day of the week. There is not a supply constraint on replacement-level basketball executives.
