I’m sorry but this is ludicrous. No disrespect, but are you over 35? If so, do you not remember how the game was played back then? It was 90% post and kick outs for the top teams, most of whom had big men as their top players. Jokic has amazing vision. Hakeem didn’t. Is that your point? Because that doesn’t make Hakeem’s offense “ok.”
sadly i am over 35, and i do remember how it was played. I'm not comparing denver's offense to the rockets, i'm comparing them to the league average. When Hakeem won mvp, the rockets were 15th in offense. There were better years then 15, but also worse years. If you have an elite offensive player (curry, jokic, harden types) you'll usually be top 5
Exactly, Sengun is way younger and already up to par if not better..... Difference is that Denver put a team around Jokic while Silas held Sengun back. I think Sengun overtakes Jokic as the best international player in a couple of years.
That's one perspective. I just see some titles are harder than others. We beat 3 title contenders and they beat 3 play in teams. That's definitively different even if as you say you hold all other factors constant. Jokic may be as good as Hakeem all time when it's all said and done. As for what Jokic has to do to match Hakeem: it's win back to back titles as the best player in the playoffs against higher seeds. That's clear to me.
I grew up watching Hakeem's Rockets and our championship runs are my most formative sports memories. Right now, Jokic has a long way to go to exceed Hakeem in my view. One more ring definitely wouldn't do it. Hakeem won two titles as the only true superstar on his team during the greatest era in the history of the NBA (Clyde's peak was already well behind him), and for one of those, it was just Hakeem and a bunch of solid roleplayers... nobody even close to Jamal Murray's level. I won't say it's utterly impossible that Jokic could exceed him in the end. I'm biased, but I'm not that biased. If Denver fourpeats and Jokic somehow gets even better over the next few years and racks up even crazier statistical achievements while knocking down more difficult rivals than he did this year, even I will have to admit defeat at some point. But, we'll cross that bridge if we come to it. Right now, he's a long way off.
But that's out of his control. What teams he and his team play against in the playoffs is not his decision to make. In fact, if they are truly a great team, they may not play against a higher seed because their records will be higher than others, like Golden State in their most dominant years. Does that make Curry's winning less impressive? Some people believe so. But it could be argued that it's more impressive because of the dominance. The "no Jordan" thing people use to dismiss Hakeem's championships is just that. They are saying that he did not beat the best. But why should he be punished for Jordan not meeting him in the playoffs? (For the record, I hate superteams. The current parity is good for the game. You can't predict with any degree of certainty who will win the title before the season even starts.)
Why is it even a comparison? Dream played during the golden age of centers while Jokic's marquee stars are still a gen behind him in LeBron, Curry and KD. People tried to do the same thing with Tim Duncan but the comp never stuck. Maybe he can develop a rivalry with Giannis (Embiid??) but he hasn't had a meaningful rival to boost his profile like Dream had with the jazz, suns or spurs.
Jokic isn't better than Kareem or Chamberlain or Shaquille O'Neal. He isn't better than Olajuwon either. Hakeem Olajuwon is the best defensive player alive. He is arguably the best to ever play, but outside of Russell, he is certainly the second best to ever play. That is a HUGE deal, and it is something that Jokic isn't even really good at. That makes it almost impossible for Jokic to catch Olajuwon and a small group of other centers. I love Jokic - best passing center since Bill Walton, and maybe ever. Awesome competitor, Hall of Famer and greatest Nugget of all time. He isn't Hakeem though.
It is out of his control and it is also 100% true that he hasn't done it. He beat 3 play in teams. We don't know if he'd beat 3 contenders (and he's failed at it in the past). We know Hakeem beat contenders. Therefore, Hakeem has proven for now that he's better. Can that change if things change? Sure. But if you're picking a franchise player that is good at scalping contenders and there's money on the line, you and I and everyone we know is picking the guy who did it rather than the guy who might be able to do it. All titles have asterisks and all of the titles are wins within that scope. Avoiding asterisks discussions may reduce disagreement , but it doesn't bring about truth. I have0 insecurity about discussing the legitimacy of our titles AND putting asterisks on other people's titles. Some titles are harder than others. In the case of Jokic vs Hakeem, the universe has made it abundantly clear one of those players achieved a higher peak than the other. There couldn't be a clearer example which is why the Jokic excuses don't work. Regardless of whether there's an asterisk next to a title, some titles have harder roads than others. The non-asterisk titles do not have the same degree of difficulty. If he wants to get in this convo, he needs to beat better teams in the playoffs and he has to win back to back titles. If he doesn't get a chance to do that, then he didn't do it. It's that simple to me. I don't bother about asterisks discussing about our title. No team has taken a dump on asterisk as convincingly as the Rockets did. In fact, I'd argue there's no more convincing way. Even beating Jordan in a series is not as definitive as actually winning the title again back to back. Jokic doesn't have to beat Embiid or Curry to win a title. If he wants to best Hakeem, he needs back to back titles against better teams than he faced this postseason.
I agree that some championships are more difficult. I don't know how anybody can argue against that. But the thing is, how do you know it is more difficult? How do people know it would be more difficult to beat a Jordan team than, say, the Ewing Knicks? It's all just counterfactual speculations. I don't understand your asterisk part. All the rules and formats apply to every team. You beat other teams to win the championship within the rules. Why should there be an asterisk? Should there be an asterisk for our 94 title because John Stark shot exceptionally bad in Game 7? If the Heat won this year's championship, should there be an asterisk because they shot way above their average? Or should Denver's championship have an asterisk because Herro was hurt? As long as it's not cheating or something to that sort, every team won fair and square. There should be no asterisk. I feel that the only people who would put an asterisk on a championship are the people who didn't win. Sounds like sour grapes to me. If the Rockets won the bubble title, would Rockets fans say that's just a Micky Mouse title and shouldn't have counted?
I know it’s unpopular but I just don’t value Russell or Wilt, like at all! They played a sport that is unrecognizable today. I know the plumbers joke is over done but it’s valid! Anything pre Magic/Bird, I don’t care about lol.
Win multiple defensive player of the year awards (which is named after Hakeem now) Lead the league for multiple seasons in a defensive statistical category Log a quadruple double Be the NBA all time leader in something, in Hakeem's case, blocks Retire top ten NBA all time in several statistical categories (blocks, rebounds, steals, points)
I respect what they did at the time but if you think Bill Russell is stepping on a modern nba court in his prime and out playing an average Center you’re out of your mind!
Sam Cassell believes that Nikola Jokić wouldn’t be able to stop Hakeem Olajuwon. “On the other end of the floor, Jokić wouldn’t stand a chance. Joel Embiid gives him problems, and he wouldn’t have any hope against Hakeem. I believe Hakeem would have an answer for whatever Jokić tried defensively,” Cassell added. Source: EuroHoops.net
Different players. Different skills. Jokic simply will never achieve those defensive accolades Hakeem has and Hakeem never achieved some of the offensive numbers Jokic has. Hakeem was the constant go to workhorse for the Rockets literally carrying this team for over a decade on both ends in both the regular season and post. I cannot say this has been the case with Jokic in his short career thus far.
Olajuwon took the rings from Jordan at his peak. That puts him on mt. Rushmore. Jokic cannot match it.
