You’re using a lot of words to effectively say “bleh bleh I don’t care about your evidence I’m just gonna keep believing what I want to believe!” Imagine saying “players weren’t trying to be efficient” as an argument in favor of those players! Lol
If you think todays (soft) league is the best it’s ever been then there’s no argument. Imo the 90s were the best the league we will ever see. Maybe I’m biased because I’m an 80s kid who grew up watching the NBA toughest match ups but Hakeem is so underrated it’s crazy. Jokish is so unique is true but it’s todays game that requires big men shooting and facilitating in order to survive.
There were better centers Dream faced , Kareem, Shaq, David Robinson, Ewing etc Joker is basically Sabonis if he wasn’t hurt . Joker’s passing skill is elite, but Dream was a great passer because he’ was always double teamed. the issue is they faced 1x1 is that Joker would get in foul trouble with Dream like he did with Anthony Davis. this should say everything about guarding Dream
https://theathletic.com/4580558/2023/06/13/nikola-jokic-nba-all-time-rank-nuggets/ In terms of the greatest players to ever be drafted in the middle of a Taco Bell commercial, Jokić’s career is unmatched. But let’s look at the raw numbers and timelines to compare the legendary careers and see where The Joker lines up after winning his first ring. Here’s his resume for a quick reminder: 28 years old (eighth year in league) Two MVPs Five-time All-NBA Career averages: 20.2 points, 10.5 rebounds, 6.6 assists, 1.2 steals, 0.7 blocks per game, 55.3 percent from the field, 34.8 percent from 3 First player to lead all players in points, rebounds and assists for an entire postseason First player with 10 triple-doubles in a single postseason Shaquille O’Neal At the time of his first championship in 1999-00: Age: 27 MVPs: One (finished with one) All-NBA teams: Seven (finished with 14) Career averages through seven seasons: 27.5 points, 12.4 rebounds, 2.7 assists, 0.7 steals, 2.7 blocks, 57.7 percent from the field, 5.9 percent from 3 No. 8 on The Athletic’s top 75 all-time list. Giannis Antetokounmpo At the time of his first championship in 2020-21: Age: 26 MVPs: Two All-NBA teams: Five (currently at seven) Career averages through eight seasons: 20.9 points, 9.1 rebounds, 4.5 assists, 1.2 steals, 1.3 blocks, 53.2 percent from the field, 28.7 percent from 3 No. 24 on The Athletic’s top 75 all-time list. Moses Malone At the time of his first championship in 1982-83: Age: 27 MVPs: Three (finished with three) All-NBA teams: Five (finished with eight) Career averages through seven seasons: 22.7 points, 14.6 rebounds, 1.4 assists, 0.9 steals, 1.6 blocks, 51.8 percent from the field, 5.3 percent from 3 No. 18 on The Athletic’s top 75 all-time list. Malone required a change of scenery and a pairing with Julius Erving to win his first ring in 1983, the year of his third MVP award. Between the ABA and NBA, Malone played with nine different teams over a 17-year career, retiring as the greatest offensive rebounder in basketball history. Similar to how the quiet Jokić lets his MVP play do his talking without owning all of his team’s possessions, Malone didn’t talk much and dominated games as a rebounder, changing entire games with one single facet. He’d only make one more deep playoff run after the ’83 ring, falling to the Celtics in the conference finals in 1985. Hakeem Olajuwon At the time of his first championship in 1993-94: Age: 31 MVPs: One (finished with one) All-NBA teams: Eight (finished with 12) Career averages through nine seasons: 23.7 points, 12.5 rebounds, 2.5 assists, 1.9 steals, 3.6 blocks, 51.6 percent from the field, 17.5 percent from 3 No. 11 on The Athletic’s top 75 all-time list. Olajuwon joined a far different team with Houston in 1984-85 than Jokić found in Denver. Paired with Ralph Sampson, the Rockets made the NBA finals in Olajuwon’s second year and appeared to be set up for a championship era ahead. However, Sampson’s knee injuries limited Houston’s success, and he was traded in 1987-88. Despite Olajuwon’s health and All-NBA play, Houston was only able to win one playoff series between their trips to the NBA Finals. After the team hired Rudy Tomjanovich as coach in 1992, Olajuwon initially demanded a trade. But after the team was unable to move him, the two were able to lead the Rockets to a pair of championships. Additionally, Olajuwon proved himself to be the decade’s premier center, dominating O’Neal, David Robinson and Patrick Ewing in the process. Jokić, similarly, has found an ideal coach and roster to maximize his talents as he battles this generation’s best big men for supremacy. Going back-to-back like Olajuwon would push Jokić into another stratosphere. Tim Duncan At the time of his first championship in 1998-99: Age: 22 MVPs: Zero (finished with two) All-NBA teams: Two (finished with 15) Career averages through two seasons: 21.3 points, 11.7 rebounds, 2.6 assists, 0.8 steals, 2.5 blocks, 52.7 percent from the field, 5.9 percent from 3 No. 9 on The Athletic’s top 75 all-time list. Dirk Nowitzki At the time of his first championship in 2010-11: Age: 32 MVPs: One (finished with one) All-NBA teams: 11 (finished with 12) Career averages through 13 seasons: 23.0 points, 8.4 rebounds, 2.7 assists, 0.9 steals, 1.0 blocks, 47.6 percent from the field, 38.1 percent from 3 No. 21 on The Athletic’s top 75 all-time list. Others Bill Walton: Walton has been as popular a Jokić comparison as any player in league history. He overcame early-career injuries to carry Portland to the 1977 title and win the 1978 MVP before foot surgeries mounted and cut his prime short. David Robinson: The Admiral was the 1994-95 MVP and won two scoring titles, but couldn’t get over the championship hump until Duncan’s arrival. As a career-long Spur, his counting numbers were hindered by a late start due to military service. Arvydas Sabonis: The Jokić before we had Jokić, Sabonis changed the way NBA fans perceived centers as one of the best big man passers ever. The bulk of the Lithuanian’s prime was spent in Europe and he made his NBA debut at 31. Dwight Howard: A stylistic opposite, Howard dominated the interior for the Magic and carried Orlando to the 2009 finals. He won three straight Defensive Player of the Year awards and was a ring away from being considered the greatest Magic player in history. Patrick Ewing: Arguably the greatest center to never win a ring, Ewing took the Knicks to two finals, and his name remains littered atop the franchise’s record book. He was one win away in the 1994 finals from being one of the most beloved athletes in New York history. Willis Reed: The first Knick to deliver the city a basketball title, Reed’s shocking Game 7 triumphant return in 1970 both carved his name into city lore and simultaneously overshadowed the rest of his career. He retired as a two-time Finals MVP, a seven-time All-Star and the 1969-70 MVP. The list of other all-time great big men Jokić has surpassed, from Charles Barkley to Bob McAdoo to Dave Cowens, helps contextualize just how fantastic a career the Nuggets star has already had. If he can put together many more healthy years before his bust is placed in Springfield, time will tell just how high Jokić climbs on the all-time list. But few can deny the legendary resume he’s already put together.
Underrated guys: Boris Diaw Riffiod - great passer, great utility guy Vlade Divac - also one of the better passers and fun to watch.
The title is skills and not who is individually the best player....... When it comes to passing bigs, those names are the first ones that come to my mind. And I am not talking Magic Johnson.
Dream would turn Jokic into a mid range/3pt shooter he isnt getting backed down for those flailing layups. Jokic couldnt do much defensively against Dream he's not quick enough. Dream would put him in a blender with hooks, dream shake/fadeaways, 15 foot jumpers and every once in a while yam it on his head for good measure. Any Rocket fan who thinks otherwise can STFU and GTFO!
Lmao, he's surrounded by high tier defenders to cover for his weaknesses, he's a below average defender. Whatever the case may be about the on ball skill is irrelevant. If you want to suck off Jokic, go somewhere else.
He completely lit up anthony davis, why would it be different for any other defender? Even if you don’t like davis, he’s a goat level defender when he’s healthy.
As i said previously, Jokic being more offensively skilled than Hakeem is not a knock on Hakeem. Jokic is just a miracle baby. Hakeem a much more rounded game, as he could completely dominate the game even if he was having a bad night offensively.
He might be better then davis by a bit, but davis is the best defender in the league, not like he’s a shmuck.
Olajuwon is the all-time leader in blocks and the only center anywhere near the top 10 in steals. Offensively I will grant you that because of his passing, but overall... Really?
Yeah, you’re definitely biased because you’re an 80’s kid lol. look, if you prefer to watch the style of ball in the 90’s that’s totally fair. But the level of play is so incredibly low compared to todays game that it’s almost just a completely different sport! It’s so interesting to me that people don’t see this! This is how athletics work, if it’s not driving forward and getting better then it’s a shitty product and doesn’t last. There is more skill, athleticism, intelligence, and versatility in todays game than there ever has been. And that will be true for the next era as well. To say the game isn’t better now is actually a discredit to the legends of last eras. Claims that they didn’t leave it in a better place, which they did! That’s why we have Jokic who can take a little bit here and there from all the great centers that came before him, and he can add in his own creativity. And that gives you something we’ve never seen before. The guy who I would take over any big man in league history.
Dream was a 2x DPOY (AD has yet to win one) Dream was a 9x All Defense player (AD 4x) All the defensive counting stats favor Dream. AD is a nice player. He's a modern big man who offers you more than the old school centers did, but he's not really in the same league as Dream on defense. Have we all forgotten already? Like Dream said "how many shots did I change" - that says it all.
the gap between them is not "shut him down" vs "light him up", of course hakeem is better but you're not comparing kawhi to trae young here or something. Nobody would shut down jokic, not sure anyone would really slow him down at all. MAYBE peak dwight because of his strength but that's about it
Imagine if we were arguing of who weighs more and you respond that you are 3inches tall than me - and when I point out that is not the right stat for what we are talking about(even if it may be true) you respond: You guys act like words don't matter - like the word 'skill' and 'TS%' are somehow related(they aren't) and it proves you aren't paying close enough attention to the words. Once more - TS% doesn't measure skill. It's a useful shot efficiency stat but it would also prove that Shaq or Giannis are more skilled offensive players than Hakeem and any dummy watching the tape can see that Shaq or Giannis might score more but were not more skilled offensively than Hakeem. That's perfectly fine by the way - Shaq or Giannis or Jokic for that matter can be more efficient players that Hakeem but saying: Jokic/Shaq/Giannis are more efficient offensive players than Hakeem(an appropriate use of TS%) is not the same things as saying: Jokic/Shaq/Giannis are more skilled offensive players than Hakeem(inappropriate use of TS%) ...and by the way - that's not to discount Jokic as a skilled offensive player(his touch is unreal) - he is obviously a far more skilled player than Shaq or Giannis and is certainly in the same galaxy as Hakeem but I feel like I have to take that argument to the extreme so you can see how an efficiency metric is not a measure of skill...and I had other points that obviously went over your head but at this point we need to get aligned on just the basics.
