Magic also knew how to market himself much better. Just like Shaq markets himself better than Dream... but Dream is still better.
Yeah it started to spiral with Scottie when he lost his wife in such an embarrassing manner, but then MJs son was hitting Scotties ex too and Scottie has forever turned on Mike because of that. He's been spewing garbage for years for attention. I could go on a long rant to cut down every insane thing Scottie just said, but it's just not worth my time. He's been listening to LeBRon fans tell him Michael couldn't win until he got there. With his 7.9ppg and 2 assists. Made everyone forget Michael was garbage.
It sure doesn't look all that convincing when the players who back LeBron have a sour history with Mike because outside of that it's just himself proclaiming himself literally and through Klutch Sports agents.
Aren't you the OP? I have a hard time believing something isn't worth your time after trying to read that nonsense. MJ isn't the GOAT because he isn't the best basketball player ever. He's the best marketing success in NBA history, and it sounds like you were a victim.
You sound like the victim of either your team getting broken hearted by Jordan(Jazz fan on a Rockets forum?)or of just being too young to know any better.
Is that it? Either lies or emotional arguments? "You're just brainwashed by Gatorade and McDonalds commercials!" No internet, no youtube and 24/7 sports talk shows(at least not this much dedicated to every sport). Just some commercials and posters are why people were sold the greatest lie ever told! First of all, you can't even be marketed without passing the eye test. You think the public would accept commercials of Brian Cook and buy he's the greatest shooter ever? Of course, not. The eye test is the purest way we can decide for ourselves if one player is better than another. It's why Kobe stans are so die hard for their guy despite the stats, but Michael has the both the eye test and the stats no matter what advanced stat is made up today to figure out a way to make LeBron greater-Michael somehow comes out on top no matter how you calculate it...and the man didn't even know anything about those stats while playing. He didn't play with the LeStat formula with his numbers in mind. He didn't rest for a decade on defense so he could last longer..for his stats..and we weren't told that resting on defense is a smart strategy to sell us his greatness! Too funny. Secondly...come on. You do realize Lebron has been marketed way more than Michael ever was? Since HS? They're still talking about him right now! When ESPN was still talking about MJ it's because they were talking about his championship he just won. They talk about LeBron after his losses, come up with excuses and look for ways to get him even more star help. Que up Kyrie or Trae Young in a Lakers uniform for the next segment. Credit to LeBron for living up to the hype and coming up short is nothing to be ashamed of. Even being top 20 would have been enough to live up to the hype which is likely where he would be if he didn't team jump. I just chuckled to myself thinking about Karl Malone being marketed to us as the greatest of all time. Karl Malone with a handle without the team ups! KD would be Melo!
Well that's where we differ because I think as far as achievements go being an All NBA play for over 2 decades easily puts Lebron over Jordan. The NBA has seen all sort of great players but look guys like KD, Kawhi even MJ himself they can't last long in the NBA before dropping off due to injury. In MJ's case yeah he was always extremely dominant but it also had to do with him having a short career cuz he took lots of breaks and also wasn't in the NBA unless he was in a dominant position. His legacy will always be tied to Pippen, Phil Jackson and Krause cuz without those 3 he never got anywhere in fact pretty much everyone acts like he only played 6 years because really that's the only time he was relevant, before that he was getting bullied by the Pistons and after that he was washed already on the Wizards. If you think about it MJ is also a one trick pony cuz like I said Pippen has as much rings as him and PJ has more rings than him. Why aren't we docking points for retiring 3 times? If Lebron did that I'm sure y'all would disqualify him but since it's MJ it's OK? Lol. Lebron Oth is like a robot he not only has played soon to be 21 yrs in the NBA he has also been a minute leader for most of his career. Unlike MJ he has won rings with various casts of characters and vs different superteams which is just harder and more impressive than running it back. He also isn't tied to any one person he has proven he can win in different situations and at different points of his career. He can also win by himself, he is LeGM and if the GM sucks he can build his own super team and win with his recruits. MJ Oth has to thank Krause for building him a super team while his peers like Hakeem running around with busts and addicts. And I'm not even going to go into the character thing, everybody hates on Lebron for being a drama queen or w/e but the reality is MJ did things that are so much worse. If he was playing in the socmed era you know MJ would be canceled by now for being a bully and power tripping on his teammates. Honestly I think when people try to argue MJ as the goat they're just not being that objective and confuse His Airness with the real MJ. If you're gonna be real objective you'll know Lebron is the goat even with all his flaws and shenanigans.
Almost sounded like you want to make it a positive that Lebron went ring chasing and took his talents to South Beach and the Lakers. That is the one thing I am not sure if that is positive or negative but just a trend in modern days. But Loyalty should definitely not be dragged down. It is actually pretty tough to stay in one place and win the title multiple times, because you have to re-invent yourself even with almost the same supporting cast. Staying hungry is toughest thing in sports.
No other sport do any fans claim a losing record to be the greatest. If Tom Brady lost majority of his SB trips, no one in their right mind would be calling him the greatest. Imagine if Jim Kelly was being propped up for 4 straight SB's! Yes, we're all confused by "his airness?" As if that's a separate person altogether, but LeBron's your beloved King? Just brainwashed by McDonalds commercials and Space Jam and are blinded to LeBron's incredible ball handling skills and his so aesthetically beautiful jumper, the resting on defense for over a decade of selective effort, the flopping his hardest to do anything it takes to win and whining when it doesn't go his way and creating phantom excuses after getting swept more than any other great and his turnovers record and his 20% clutch shooting and his traveling and his bullying under the basket down hill in a league with minimal paint resistance, but shooting far below league average even just a few feet away from the hoop. That's my goat! You let that "king" self promote himself to you and you actually bought it and auto boosted him over winners like Timmy and Kobe. You let him and his friends take over media to push his agenda, paying off people through Klutch Sports to continue his mass self promotion b/c on it's own, his legacy doesn't hold up as #1, and is very arguable if at all close outside of advanced metrics created during his time that still don't put him ahead of Mike(CP3 has better advanced stats than Magic and Steph-GOAT PG!? No? B/c you lebron fans only use things that help sell your narrative). Huge cases can be made for Magic, Bird, Kobe, Duncan and Steph over LeBron who if he didn't chase team ups, would likely be on par with Karl Malone and KD's equal. Watch Steph also finish with more championships too. Watch Giannis finish tied with Lebron when it's all said and done. Hell, maybe Victor as well. Can't imagine myself calling Jordan the greatest if Magic, Chuck, Dream, Robinson all had more championships than Jordan and Bird, Ewing, and Shaq all tied with him. You do know your king likely has zero championships if he didn't run to Miami to start his mercenary for hire run? He was bound for Karl Malone territory and you let him sell you narratives on why he's the goat instead. Curious and serious question. Do yall just look at numbers? What's so attractive about the man and his game? He's about as fake nice as any star. He throws teammates and coaches under the bus all the time and he publicly displays some physical act directing blame to them like a poor leader. Always has excuses. Always says things that he doesn't back up. He flops as bad as Vlade Divac. He's a great dad, but when the cameras are on. His charity is always public which is the opposite of what true genuine altruism is supposed to be. He's a drama queen. He's always ASKING and DEMANDING his respect, the opposite of those who earn it. He's always self promoting himself unlike anyone in the history of team sports. "Any man who must say 'I am the king' is no true king." It's insecurity. His game is UGLY. From his shooting form to his ball pounding dribbling to his layups to his running form to his actual face. His game is robotic. Not modern day idea of it, but rock-em-sock-em robotic. Big and clunky but still fast and strong and can jump high vertically. He has nothing but numbers going for him over Steph or Kobe. Yet somehow you guys who ride with him truly believe he is the greatest of all time. I really believe that you believe that. You'll go to great lengths to devalue every teammate he's ever had that helped him get his 4 rings, while boosting any teammate other greats have had and devaluing their competition. I've had LeBron fans argue with me that brons never had a superstar teammate like Steve Kerr. You'll lie for him and make up false stats and use factual narratives without context to devalue while at the same time have every excuse lined up for his failures and use narratives without context to help your guy. He's never had an ounce of trouble as if that's something special-yet with his hands all in the media-he's never faced media targeted life and career destruction like basically nearly every goat of every sport has endured. I'm truly curious how so many, even if only about 20-30% of voters actually vote him as the greatest. You're all minorities in his 20+ season. You know that right? If LeBron is in year 21 while right now Mike is finishing off his 3 peat after his incredible individual performances before that? He'd be getting voted majority over Lebron all the same and the argument against Steph would be Mike didn't have KD, and the argument against Kobe is they're truly tied b/c Kobe had Shaq as the #1 for 3 titles. You have to know that right? No one respects that disney bubble championship. If Mike just finished a 3 peat and decides to retire right now as LeBron just got swept, no one would care about LeBron threatening to retire for pity and creating phantom injury excuses to take the attention off his sweep-he wouldn't have to b/c the entire sports world would be focused on the 3x champion who electrifies us unlike anything else has just retired. Lebron is an afterthought in Michael's shadow. Still an all time great player, of course. So was Karl Malone.
The last memory i will have etched in my brain when i think of Lebron will be his jumping up and down and animated child like pouting whining like a spoiled kid not getting what he wants. It perfectly displays who that man child is and the leader we're supposed to believe he is. His fans tried to argue that even Jordan whined for no calls. Everyone including coaches get animated, but in an adult aggression stating their case which is only human, but what Lebron showed was unlike anything i've ever seen from a grown adult mega star athlete. If he did that in any other era, he would have lost his teammates and fans respect forever. Only in this era would that behavior be celebrated while Mike's alpha leadership would be called abusive and demand to be canceled.
I respect your mind On flip side if Finals record is what its all about then B Russell is supreme GOAT and West shouldn't be the logo based on his like 1-8 Finals record Even Brady playoff/Superbowl wins come with a receipt of all of the ''gates'', so how can a cheater be GOAT? Same way L Armstrong went from possible GOAT cyclist to banished cheater Same with how Bonds can be viewed as more dominant individually than Jeter but Yanks won the rings, still doesn't make Jeter better than Bonds Jim Kelly gets high end props from me going to 4 straight SB's in NFL which is amazing career feat, but of course winning 3 in 4 seasons like 90's Cowboys is more legendary and remembered Both players have been heavily promoted, Jordan has been retired for like 2 decades and they compare players to Jordan and keep his name alive because Jordan did bring them in tons of $$$ during that 90's title run Jordan started taking over East when the major powerhouse teams got old/injured like Sixers/Pistons/Celtics and expansion took place which waters down League even more So when Jordan took the torch from Isaiah/Bird/Magic most of the powerhouse teams were out West, similar to how it was recycled and the same was said about the new(replica) #23 who went to 8 straight Finals in weak East I don't think advanced stats really matter when debating dominant players, it comes down to who would you draft to build your from scratch, you can't go wrong with a Magic/Jordan/Bron or a Curry/Steph, though I would prefer a player from the first group, but I could also see where others may prefer to go with a Kareem/B Russell/Shaq/Wilt/Dream 1st overall selection, depends on your personal choice on how you rank players Jordan won 6 rings out of like 15 seasons, Bron has been to more Finals, which I would imagine why West was made logo, going to like 9/10 Finals but only winning 1 Winning only 4 out of 10 sucks, but reaching 10 Finals as the man(or co-man) is a major accomplishment in any sport, Jordan just mastered the Finals to the tune of 6 6 6 That Boston team was a problem and as a Free Agent and some USA plotting earlier with Wade/Bosh allegedly, it was easy to form a big 3 to give himself a better chance at a title run, which them reaching 4 straight Finals was big time, just like Jordan 6 rings in 8 yrs is epic run If Karl Malone had Bron prime speed with the handle/play making ability(vision) and capable 3pt shot from day one, he might be the GOAT and all time leading scorer Kerr was not superstar player, but was a sniper specialist who hit some big shots during second 3peat, Kerr just took over for Paxson role basically Bron squeaky clean image is all NBA driven to protect their golden boy, similar to how they did original golden boy Jordan and sent him to play baseball until the alleged gambling debt allegations died down But Bron definitely behind closed doors has done some dirt/ritual, its a Hollywood thang I would rather pay to see the 'come fly with me' version of Jordan over Bron, but the day one rookie to 2018 version of Bron makes a case as being the GOAT, not on my list but I could see where others may think so You make it seem like Malone was a bum, Duncan took the torch from him and Barkley, and Duncan is viewed by most as best PF ever It really just comes down to what you prefer when building your team Do you value more a scoring machine or all around player who can score? I would be good with either player with no 2 pick
Building a team around LeBron means you will not run a system, you will not develop players, you will not keep a coach for too long, you will not know peace and stability, and you will not control the narrative around the team. You will basically surrender your team to LeBron and his emotional state. That's been successful at times. But it hasn't lasted and it hasn't been real basketball.
Tough to admit, but LeBron was better than Kobe and had a better career. However, I would take Kobe over LeBron if I owned a team. I'd get 20 years of Kobe. I'd get maybe 6 with LeBron before he bails on me. I'd also get to actually run my team. I'd also likely win as many or more championships.
Bron never had a HOF caliber coach early to put him in check, the league set up Bron to take over for Jordan after 03' and probably felt best to keep patsies over there outside of Lue (2nd stint) and a then young an unproven Spolestra who of course is now top tier but had Riley to steer that ship early Bron thrives in his controlled created chaos, and you have to take the good with bad, and ride out the 10 Finals trips, since 07' Cleveland out of all places has been to 5 Finals, and they put up the longest with his BS but those 5 trips were worth it to them giving him the keys to the franchise Bron dominated from basically 04' to 2020, after the bubble run the keys should have been taken because he is not the same anymore impact wise due to the mileage and age
Lebron was miles better then kobe, they aren’t in the same stratosphere. If you take lebrons 6 year peak you almost get to the career value of kobe. Kobe also sucked his first 3 years and was horrific his last 3 so it’s not really 20 years
