This is a possibility, but that's also why you counter with some of the looks I shared earlier (and with Sengun/JG/Jabari/etc., I think they'd be pretty useful). Amen's first step "gravity" kinda makes up for having no shooting gravity.
Your first step only matters if someone is defending you. If they play this far off of you, daring you to shoot and laughing at you if you do, then your first step means nothing. Also, how do you counter with other guys who can't shoot like Sengun, JG, and Jabari? You'd still just leave Amen open because he's not an NBA caliber shooter. You can basically ignore him if he doesn't have the ball unless he's within 10 feet of the basket. There's a reason you don't find many guards this pathetic at shooting in the modern NBA. It's absolutely detrimental to the team.
See the plays/clips in my previous post of Westbrook and (early career) Zion taking advantage of their first step gravity. Even if you sag off them, you don't want to completely lose them due to how dangerous they are at getting to the basket. But yeah, if they all suck at shooting, that's a problem. I'm assuming they'll be decent (and Sengun would be lethal to fake a DHO and drive it himself), but duh it sucks if everyone is trash. Amen is at a big disadvantage with his lack of shooting, but if he can be an elite playmaker and constant rim threat (with his quick step), this partially alleviates things. The thing is most guards that can't shoot also don't have that elite first step, so that wasn't an option for them.
Yeah I'm just having some fun. But truthfully I don't think he will have much of a career if he doesn't learn to shoot. Any team that drafts him is betting that he can learn how to shoot. "Ben Simmons with a jumpshot" is a perennial all-nba guy and an all time great. That's basically Lebron.
Yeah, gotcha. I was mostly quoting the picture, as that is a good example of what *not* to do if you have a guard like Amen. Was that Doc Rivers? Wouldn't surprise me if so. Though Ben also had his issues even taking layups there at the end, which hopefully someone like Amen wouldn't have an issue with. edit: Eh, think that was just before Doc, so can't blame him.
Utilizing Thompson early in his career comes down to his screener being able to pop back and hit the 18 footer as well as having the other 3 players on the floor be capable 3pt shooters. Jabari Smith is someone that could project as an effective center in a Thompson led offense. Porter also an effective catch and shoot option. Assuming Green bumps his percentage up a bit over the next couple years as well just needs us wanting a sniper at the 4 with some size to offset a smaller sf (KPJ).
So you are unironically saying that you hope he'll be like Westbrick as a good thing? Yikes. Also, hilarious as it is, Westbrick is a significantly better shooter than Amen. Westbrick's shooting is pathetic for an NBA guard, Amen's shooting is pathetic for a middle school guard. Also, they can't get by you with a quick first step if you play 8 or 9 feet off of them. Just about any NBA wing could react to the quickest first step if they sag off that far. I refer you back to this picture, this is what a shooter as pathetic as Amen would face in the NBA and every single person in this picture including the refs, guys on the bench, the coaches, and probably even some of the fans are better than anyone Amen ever played against in his glorified rec league where he shot 22% from 3.
I've said multiple times in this thread that Westbrook is a decent comp to Amen IMO. Would I like him to be Westbrook mixed with Curry? Absolutely. But it is what it is. People can judge for themselves whether that's good or bad. Russ was a multi-time all-star (hell an MVP), so that would match up with what guys like Spinella was saying (i.e., Amen could get by without much of a jump shot). I'd much prefer it if Amen took that route but knocked out the mid-range shots that Russ settled for, which should improve his efficiency. He'd also likely be a much better defender (hopefully closer to a Ben Simmons). That's somewhat ceiling stuff, but assuming he still doesn't have much of a shot. If people think Amen being a taller, hopefully more efficient Westbrook with better defense is a bad player, then OK. Let's go after Cam, Jarace, etc., and hope they're the next Lebron. Cool. Yeah, like I said, that picture is an example of what you shouldn't do with Amen. Maybe something Silas would do (and hopefully something Udoka won't do). Again, see the sets I linked to earlier. You can handwave how it won't work, but guys like Westbrook and Zion were literally running plays to take advantage of their first steps despite defenses trying to sag off of them. It can and has been done. It takes a bit of creativity (i.e., don't just give them the ball and let everyone stand 10+ feet away), but you can come up with effective sets and counters to these kind of defenses. And of course, I'm not pretending like this will be some elite 1.20 PPP type offense in the half-court. But I don't think we're stuck with .600 PPP either, which is the impression I get from some on how an Amen half-court offense would look.
I think there is a lot of this that goes on. The more I look at this draft the more I see that Miller, Scoot, and Amen all have pretty large flaws as prospects. To the point that Jalen Green would easily be #2 in this draft, same for Jabari. Scoot being a point god ONLY works if he can shoot. With Amen though at least the guys he get compared with can't shoot and have had success in the NBA. Miller just seems like a Porter Jr type of player. Nice to have, you're not building a team around him. Of course all of these guys could eliminate their flaws over the years and turn out to be perennial all-stars but right now I really don't see that big of difference between them. I think Miller has the lowest ceiling of them all, that's just my personal feeling, seems like his ceiling is fringe all-star, a guy who at his best gets 2-3 all-star appearances, has a good career, but nothing special. I think Amen and Scoot have super high ceilings...just have to be able to shoot averagely well to get there but you can never take shooting for granted or just assume a player will get better at it. Westbrook never did and it wasn't for lack of trying, just never could. In the end, I'll take Amen over the rest of the field (If he's all that is left) and just hope he gets a passable shot because as its been said, a player can get better at shooting...they will not get better at acceleration, speed, jumping ability, etc. That's something that can't be taught. My big board would be Scoot first, Amen 2nd, Miller third. Thankfully I don't think Miller will be there at 4 because he's the type of player that fits on any team.
What do you mean that's what you "shouldn't do with Amen"? If you're facing Amen and he EVER has the ball, that's EXACTLY what you should do to him....he'd have no response to it. If he shoots, you laugh, you cut off all his pass lanes, so he's just stuck either running into a wall of defenders and praying he gets a whistle or standing there and waiting for a competent teammate to take the ball from him. The point is that there's no reason for anyone to ever defend Amen unless he's within 10 feet of the rim with the ball or without the ball. That kills spacing. You just can't have a ball dominant player that terrible at shooting in the modern NBA.
That's why you don't do that with Amen on offense, not defense (was that not obvious?). You run the plays I keep referring to. You don't give Amen the ball at a stop and isolate him while everyone else stands still 10+ feet away. Because yes, you get the defense you described. Super easy to execute for the reasons you mention.
So why would you want a PG that can't EVER be off ball and when on ball has to ALWAYS have someone setting screens for him because he's such a joke of a shooter? Just sounds like more of a detriment to the team than a benefit. Like I said before, he's like a shorter Giannis that shoots worse. I'm not sure that's an NBA player.
Right, so yeah you're kinda describing Westbrook, who I threw out as a comp. Maybe that's good, maybe that's bad. I'm hopeful he'd be more efficient (better shot selection), maybe a better playmaker, and a much better defender. Is that a good NBA player? I'd probably say yes, but if people think no, then ok.
Now reports are coming out that Ben Simmons was already lazy in school and preferred to stick to defense and passing rather than expanding his game...... There is a lot of need for mental fortitude and firm personality riding in a player's development and outlook.
Yeah, it's like Westbrook, only even worse at shooting the ball. Westbrook is closer to shooting like Steph Curry than Amen is to shooting league average for a PG. I think we just lump everyone that shoots under 33% from 3 into one "bad" category, but there's a MASSIVE difference between a 30% shooter against NBA competition like Westbrick and a guy who hit 22% against children in a glorified rec league like Amen. Legitimately if we had a game of HORSE, shots only, that was Amen against 5 random CF posters, I don't think Amen wins. He's THAT bad. I deadass haven't even picked up a basketball in a decade, I might beat him in a 3 point shooting contest because I was pretty good forever ago when I played casually. I make fun of Westbrick's shooting all the time, but I don't think for a second I beat him in a 3 point shooting contest, he's terrible, but terrible for a professional. Amen is terrible for a random at the YMCA. I just don't see how a non-big man overcomes that.
Amen shot 25% AFAIK (though better in the playoffs), which is atrocious. Though he also *mostly* shot these wide open. And I'm guessing he'll also get to shoot these wide open in the NBA. The level of competition matters for other stuff, but if he's getting wide open shots regardless, I don't know if it really affects things *that* much. Guess we'll find out for sure either way. They both suck, but with the number of 3s Westbrook typically takes (3.7 per game career), 25% vs 30.5% (his career average) results in like .925 made 3s per game vs 1.125 made 3s. Is that significant? I don't know. Maybe. Russ also took closer to 7.2 3s one year (on 34.3%), so maybe you can argue things would be significantly different there. Yeah I get it. Amen sucks at shooting. It is a problem. I'm just trying to be realistic and say you can *probably* still do something with his other skills to create effective offense. Hopefully he fixes his shot and all of this is moot. Well unless he's not a Rocket, in which case, I hope he can't shoot, can't pass, and trips over his feet on every drive.
After KD left OKC, there was an iteration of the OKC team centered only Westbrook. While it got him his triple double record/mvp, it also was a 1st round exit team. Westy was still more or less in his prime back then. Is this what we want Amen to be as far as a protype; build round a westbrook? This is also assuming his layup package and finishing around the rim matches that of Westbrook in his prime.
I'd hope that Jabari, JG, Sengun, etc., are a better supporting cast (mayba ala the KD/Harden Thunder with WB). I also hope Amen is better in certain ways (including defense). But yeah, that's a strong possibility. Maybe not a good outcome.
I think this is kind of the sell on Amen. That unlike Westbrook he might have better shot selection and unlike Ben he won't be mentally frail/lazy. I think this is the hope for Amen if he doesn't improve his shot that he'll basically be a better teammate than the other two.
He also projects a great wing defender, a much more valuable defensive role than Westbrook. This all comes down to one philosophical question: 1. Do people on this board think any non-center prospect who is currently a bad jump shooter from all levels can be worth a top 5 pick? A lot of people seem to think the answer is no. That’s cool. I’d disagree. Highly unlikely anyone’s mind is changed.
