Netflix’s Black Cleopatra ‘documentary’:Egyptian comedian on Jada Pinkett, 'This b****!!'

I agree. Whether Cleopatra looked like Grace Jones or like Gwyneth Paltrow is less important than what her role was at the end of the Pharoahnic Egypt and the rise of Imperial Rome.

I'm not arguing on this basis of that this changes her role but that this is an interesting subject for art history. The resistance to even considering it shows though that it is less about the ancient evidence and more about current views on race.

 

I don't think there's much to argue about here. The series was made by Jada Smith to promote Afrocentrism. It is not really a real historical documentary, and the queens needs to be played by black people or else the series wouldn't be made.

I think Netflix needs to stop calling it a documentary.

If this was a real documentary done by BBC or Discovery, there should be a public debate.

 

And? Tolkein himself said he didn't care what color people made his characters.

My issue is when Cleo is blackwashed people go "Oh, I have an issue with them race swapping real people." Which I agree with but then you'll hear right after... "I don't care if character is fictional..."

Except we know people DO care, because if there is a black elf Tinman comes out linking 8 youtube videos about how LOTR is now woke because they dared to cast a black elf.

 

Except Elves do look like humans in the books...

There really is no difference between how the elves look in Jackson's LOTR or Amazon's lol. They were always just people with pointed ears which the whole ear thing was never even in the books. If Jackson had done it right then the elves would just be taller than humans and that's it. Elves in Tolkein's LOTR could be mistaken for humans.

So the funny thing is Jackson is guilty of changing the elves himself from the source material. Have it from Tolkein, Elves were just magical humans who were more beautiful by average...but hey, give the elves pointy ears no one cares but give them dark skin???!??!?!? That'll really get the anti-woke brigade fired up!

 

Good point on the Nubians. I think the reason why Cleo is so heavily used in Afrocentric films or works is that she really fits the bill of a strong independent black woman. I mean the name of the series is literally "African Queens", Cleo is like the perfect historical figure for it.

 

Really? Perhaps if there was actual evidence it would be considered more seriously. Just claiming something is remotely possible isn't sufficient when the claim is that something that is not at all supported by the evidence is indeed factually true.

These types of lies or half-truths creep into history and are not countered because of politics or because people want them to be indeed true.

For a long time it was widely accepted that Hitler was Jewish - when there is actually no factual basis for it. However, no one wanted to touch it because Hitler is terrible. The same thing with Thomas Jefferson and what he did.... and the depiction of some Civil War figures by the South, glamorizing them because it fit their narrative.

The truth and reality is what should prevail - and when sufficient facts come forward, then opinions can change. That is how it is supposed to work.

 

This is absolutely true. We have seen it and still do when discussing the level of development thousands of years ago in areas where there were not European people...... fantastical and unverifiable "theories" emerge and idiots like Joe Rogan and other (mostly white men) push these theories.

Why? Because of entitlement, and the failure of European/American white people to realize that the West has not always ruled the world and hasn't always been the most developed areas in the world. Go look at what the Egyptians or Chinese were doing thousands of years ago and compare it to the Western Europeans that lived like stray dogs in comparison.

There is a lot of blame to go around. There is very little coverage of history in school outside the USA and Europe.

Also, I have had some black American's tell me that they do not really have any bond or care of African history outside of the USA. The thought being that they are not African, but that they are black and their history was sold out by Africa and the white man both. It took me a long time to understand this perspective, as I am not black.

Yeah, they could have gone further back and even progressed through the Ptolemy Empire if they wanted. There is LOTS of African history that is fascinated but seldom discussed.

Also, what is being forgotten is that it isn't blackwashing white history - it is blackwashing the history of another marginalized group that views it's self as very distinct from Africa or Europe.

 

Bruh, what you talking about? There are no elves in Zelda, Link is not an elf.

 

Brah, they are not elves. "elf-like" not elves, their ears are pointed to hear messages from the gods or something.

See, this is what happens when you listen to fake grifting nerds that pretend to be part of fandoms to gatekeep and not actual nerds.

 

We have the coinage of her, that she approved during her reign and it depicts her with Macedonian features.

We also have busts that are viewed as authentic by scholars from when she was alive that depict her with Macedonian features.

We also have a bust of her daughter, which is ALSO consistent with Macedonian features.

We have, from Cleopatra's lifetime her depiction from Pompeii's House of Rufus that depicts her consistent with her coinage, with olive skin and Macedonian features.

The overwhelming majority of evidence depicts her as a woman with Macedonian features - and that is consistent with the depiction of her child.

Is it possible that she was not olive skinned and Macedonian in feature? Anything is possible, but there is no evidence at all to support this.

Hell, we know that she has some Iranian in her bloodline, perhaps we can claim that she is Arab - as at least there is evidence of this.

I have had a similar discussion on a number of historical figures.

If evidence emerges that is credible, that Cleopatra is not Macedonian - then we should change history. However, it is reckless in a documentary to claim that Cleopatra was black African because there is no strong basis for it.

 

A lot of evidence has been provided that Cleopatra might not look like what we currently consider to look like. That you're just dismissing that evidence is dissappointing.

Your argument right there shows that this has to do with current views is making my point. Are you unwilling at all to consider any of the counter evidence? Or do you think that any counter argument that Cleopatra might;ve had dark skin is "just because people want it to be true"?

 

And we have evidence from the Temple of Dendera and other sites showing her portrayed differently. We don't have her body and many of the descriptions of her were also laced with subjective languange tied to political views regarding her affair with Mark Antony.

again read the piece I posted.

I agree there is plenty of evidence that her features were exactly as you lay out. If pressed to it I would say most likely she probably looked like the actress Marina Sirtis. That said we have no conclusive evidence.

I entered this debate largely as a purely intellectual discussion. What I find unsettling is how much opposition there is based upon current views rather than focussing primarily on ancient evidence.

 

I am willing to consider contrary evidence, but there really isn't any strong contrary evidence at all - and certainly not any new that provides that Cleopatra was Sub African - ZERO.

Provide me one fact or even reasonable inference to support the belief that she was Sub African....... I have read what you presented, I am a huge Egyptophile. If there were evidence that Cleopatra was Sub African, that would only make the story MORE interesting, especially with the reign being so in debt, and the meshing of cultures - but there isn't any evidence other than naked speculation.

What we do know is that she came from a Macedonian line - We do know that her royal line was removed from Egyptian society and culture - the first ruler in 300 years to speak Egyptian was Cleopatra. We know that Cleopatra's line was not known to mate with Egyptians. We know that incest was rampant in her line - and we have numerous depictions of her siblings and what they looked like.

We know she was partially Iranian - so we do know have a history of at least some of her bloodline.

There is an argument made by a writer that she could be partially Egyptian - which is certainly possible, but there really isn't any evidence direct or circumstantial to support it -but even assuming she is partially Egyptian, that is not Sub African. She could be darker than olive skinned, and that wouldn't mean she was Sub African either.

@rocketsjudoka , anything is possible - but there is no strong evidence connecting Cleopatra being Sub African, and that is why the Egyptian Antiquities came out as strongly as they did - and made it clear that they had respect for Sub Africa but that they want historical accuracy.

We see this happen a lot in "pop" history, an opinion or desire of history is put out there, but it isn't supported by any real strong facts and it then becomes widely accepted. There are many examples of it.

I think that I struggle to express myself sometimes. I am not claiming that I know exactly what Cleopatra looked like, nor am I claiming that she is 100% Macedonian (who we are pretty sure look like modern Greeks), but what I am saying is that there is no strong evidence, direct or circumstantial that she was Sub African..... and the evidence we do have, points to her being Macedonian and partially Iranian - so to make a documentary and portray her as Sub African is not responsible.

I ran into this same issue with Hitler being a Jew. I pointed out that there is not really any credible evidence that Hitler was Jewish - and some thought I was defending Hitler (I am not) or that I was a bigot for even pointing it out. With history it isn't a movie, we want to rely on the best evidence we have and be willing to change when better evidence comes to light.

 

Okay there are a couple things going on here.

Do I believe that Cleopatra had dark skin? The evidence that we have points to that not being the case, but it is limited.

However, having skin darker than olive colored is also different than claiming that she is Sub African - which is the basis of the Egyptian Antiquity objection, and what my point is.

Do I think the argument is being made that she was Sub African is because some people want it to be true? Yes, at least for some people. It is the same reason that some argue Jesus was white and others argued he was black - when really he likely looked like a Middle Eastern Jew.

People let a good story get in the way of facts, and that is upsetting when you are trying to present that story as based on the best facts.

As a side note, are there some that are arguing that Cleoptra wasn't Sub African, because they have an agenda? I am sure, but in this particular case there is really no evidence that she was Sub African.