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Ukraine

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by NewRoxFan, Nov 25, 2018.

  1. Major

    Major Member

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    Trump and Cruz, certainly. But McConnell is very supportive of US efforts in Ukraine.
     
  2. Major

    Major Member

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    To be fair, it is - or was - a bit more complex. Not sure about the last 10 years and if it's made them more pro-Russian (presumably so).

    https://www.lse.ac.uk/research/rese...crimeans-really-pro-russian-before-annexation

    How did Crimea’s residents feel before the war?
    My research shows that identity in Crimea was far more complex than a region with a Russian, or pro-Russian, majority. Few in Crimea identified as pro-Russian nationalists. In fact, only those I interviewed within pro-Russian parties and movements identified as such. Instead, many identified as ethnically Russian, but with few cultural or political ties to Russia. Many others identified as between Ukraine and Russia: as Crimean. Meanwhile, many younger people did not identify, ethnically, even as Russian speakers, rather they identified as Ukrainian citizens.

    We know we had underestimated the strength of people’s political identification with Ukraine before Russia’s war against Ukraine. Equally, we underestimated Ukraine’s capacity to mobilise citizens. Crimea was considered particularly unlikely to be a region with a community identifying foremost as Ukrainian citizens. Yet, in Kin Majorities I explore how political identification with Ukraine was important for many in Crimea before annexation, especially younger people.
     
  3. Major

    Major Member

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    If 55% of Texans wanted to be a part of Mexico, and Mexico invaded and took it by force, do you think the US should just be "ok, that's cool."? Abandon the other 45% and their land/resources/etc?

    You are so desperate in your weird attempts to defend Russia while pretending not to.
     
    dobro1229 likes this.
  4. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Member

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    To answer your dumb analogy, yes, if the border was open and a mass amount of Mexicans moved in and overwhelmingly most of them voted to be annexed by Mexico, and then Mexico moved in and controlled the territory for almost a decade, I would think Mexico would have a claim.

    But Mexico isn't Russia and the United States is not Ukraine. As I said, dumb analogy.

    And in typical Major fashion, you continue to ignore my point. I simply stated United States has no business in this war. I wish the Ukrainians well.
     
  5. DaDakota

    DaDakota Balance wins
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    The USA is weakening its enemy and using old retired equipment in a lend lease program this war is great for our country and the Ukraine needs the help.



    DD
     
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  6. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
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    According to the occupying authorities of Crimea, there was an attack by surface drones on the peninsula at night.

    According to them, one drone managed to be destroyed, the other broke off by itself.

    https://t.me/operativnoZSU
     
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  7. Commodore

    Commodore Member

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  8. Ubiquitin

    Ubiquitin Member
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    Imagine you’re dictator and your 3 day operation to conquer a country causes you to lose hundreds of thousands of lives, half your heavy equipment, your and your militaries reputation, and you end up losing a piece of your annexed and previously uncontested conquest.
     
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  9. DaDakota

    DaDakota Balance wins
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    How did that cameraman know where to point the camera?

    LOL

    DD
     
  10. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
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  11. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Member

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    After the war is over and some period of stablization, they could have a referendum in Crimea on what political arrangement Crimeans want. Of course, how the rules are written of who gets to vote in the referendum would probably determine the outcome.
     
  12. HTM

    HTM Member

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    Since 2014, Russia has been employing traditional Soviet resettlement practices and forcibly changing the demographic composition of the population in Crimea (see EDM, May 30, 2019 and August 6, 2019). The imposition of Russian Federation citizenship on residents of Crimea (nearly all residents of the peninsula had Russian citizenship less than a year after the annexation), forced deportations, the unlawful conscription of local men into the Russian military, persecutions and imprisonments of pro-Ukrainian activists who stand against the occupation, repressions against the Ukrainian Church, as well as closures of Ukrainian schools triggered a mass departure of Ukrainians (including Crimean Tatars) from Crimea. According to the Prosecutor General’s Office of Ukraine, almost 48,000 people left the peninsula for Ukraine during the last seven years (Krymr.com, January 6, 2021). The number of those who moved to other countries may be higher.

    At the same time, Russia has been actively trying to increase the size of its “loyal” population by promoting and encouraging the in-migration of its citizens to Crimea. According to the Office of the Federal State Statistics Service in Crimea and Sevastopol, since 2014, 205,559 Russians moved to Crimea, of whom 88,445 settled in Sevastopol (Crimeahrg.org, January 6). As of January 2021, the population of Sevastopol was 513,149 (Goroda Rossii, accessed March 14). Ukrainian authorities from the Ministry of Reintegration of Temporarily Occupied Territories and representatives of the Crimean Human Rights Group believe the real figures of such new settlers are much greater (Informator.ua, January 6). A large number of military personnel, employees of the federal government, local and federal executive branch agencies (the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the Federal Security Service, the Investigative Committee, the Customs Service, prosecutor’s offices, the Border Service, the National Guard, the Tax Service, the Treasury, the Pension Fund), and members of their families are moving to Crimea without changing their permanent registration in Russian passports (because of the fear of being sanctioned), and thus they are not included in official statistics. Russian official statistics include only those who registered their place of residence in Crimea. The joint “Monitoring Group” of BlackSeaNews and the Black Sea Institute of Strategic Studies suggests that the real number of migrants who came to Crimea may be between 800,000 and 1 million people (BlackSeaNews, August 29, 2020).

    https://jamestown.org/program/demog...migration-as-part-of-russias-hybrid-strategy/

    Russia has been ethnically stacking Ukraine for a long time now, not to mention the ethnic tensions/considerations even before the annexation.

    Any Ukrainian retaking of Crimea is going to be a mess with regards to this situation.

    With regards to Crimean "self-determination" - Obviously, Ukraine isn't going to let Crimea join the Russian Federation or become "autonomous" and become a Russian Federation puppet.

    So, I'm not sure what "letting the Crimeans" decide actually looks like, unless the Crimean's conveniently decide to do what Kiev wants.
     
  13. basso

    basso Member
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  14. dmoneybangbang

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    Lol…. Replace that with “right wing outrage machine”

    What culture war issue will be pushed out by your media today?!?!?!
     
  15. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
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    Not sure people realize that Crimea was very nearly internally autonomous from the rest of Ukraine prior to the war.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Crimean_referendum

    This is why the russian 2014 referendum only included options for 1991 constitutional status, vs joining Russia. Russia was afraid they couldnt fix the referendum hard enough to defeat votes in favor of 1994 post-referendum status.
     
  16. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Member

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    If ethnic cleansing is already fait accompli in Crimea, I don't know that it makes sense to force them to be Ukrainian against their will. Assuming that Ukraine can even manage to occupy it.
     
  17. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
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    1. Deport all the post-2014 Russians back to Russia. (In international law it was never Russia, so Russians colonists are all illegal immigrants).
    2. Allow all Crimeans who fled to Ukraine after 2014 to return home.
    Problem solved.
     
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  18. basso

    basso Member
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    not our call.
     
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  19. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Member

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    Couldn't it credibly be called ethnic cleansing to forcibly remove Russian immigrants?

    Agreed, not our call.
     
  20. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
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    How so since Crimea will still be full of ethnic Russians and Tatars who like Ukraine?

    Would be sort of like the claim that affirmative action is racist against white people. Its a remedy for a past injustice.
     
    #12120 Ottomaton, Apr 25, 2023
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2023

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