Oh I've substantiated my opinion many times, and it's pretty simple. As is yours, I just happen to think that your opinion is substantially wrong, and substantially more people should adhere to mine.
While I appreciate the measured takes in this thread from you, just waiting until they are 18 isn't exactly the answer It's not like waiting till 18 is 0 risk to someone that wants to identify as the opposite gender. It could be the difference of passing and not passing and that's a pretty huge deal for people that have gender dysphoria. It's not something that people should wave away but I see it usually is when passing is pretty much the point of transitioning in the first place. That a Transwoman or man can walk down the street and be identified as their gender is vital to this discussion. I'm personally fine with surgeries having to take place after 18 but the fact is for a lot of trans kids the only hope they have of passing is by taking puberty blockers. Of course this isn't the case for ALL trans kids, hormones work differently for everyone. I think what people should be focused on are the detrans, these few in an extremely niche community, this deserves more attention but attention that isn't based on invalidating the experience of trans people. It's very possible these were just people on the spectrum of sexuality and were misdiagnosed and went down a path that wasn't quite meant for them. A lot of these people seem to just be gay or lesbian people who instead of accepting that were coping with this reality by wanting to be the other gender as to then not be gay. Or as I've heard a detrans person say "I internalized my homophobia so much that I couldn't accept that I was homosexual..." and so the man becomes a woman and therefore can't be gay anymore. I really think detrans should be a separate issue from trans youth because I think we do have enough data that does show the majority of trans people that do transition, are happy. Who knows about the medical conditions, as you've pointed out, long term medical effects, but happiness as an idea is something hard to scientifically measure and really something you just have to take someone's word on.
I don't trust that we have reliable data on transition success rates. Especially for minors. I think what we need to focus on are things like: -actual informed consent -familial rights and obligations -freedom for medical providers to offer care as they see fit (no "gender affirming care" only policies) Also, it's taboo to discuss, but you're correct re: gender dysphoria being a coping mechanism for repressed or unreconciled homosexuality. That's way more common than people think. I think more interesting data (and probably more reliable to gather) would be around how many minors who experienced gender dysphoria ended up feeling transition was necessary after X number of years, etc.
We don’t have sufficient data and that is the entire point. We don’t know how many people just stop taking the puberty blockers or hormones. We don’t know how many people end up not being happy with mastectomies and actual genital reassignment surgeries. There are a lot of reasons why - it hasn’t always been tracked for example- people that are not happy with their transition tend to change doctors. How will the increase in people identifying as transexuals play out in satisfaction with puberty blockers, etc? The number of young people identifying as trans has greatly increased, why? How does that impact this? When someone is 18, they are an adult. They can make their own decisions and decide. By then, hopefully they have had years of therapy and have presented as a different gender and can make an informed decision. If we start seeing solid numbers and sample size, studies that are not self reporting - then we can make a decision to allow puberty blockers or surgery based on a lot of information and not just hunches.
You're taking that quote way out of context. The full quote He's speaking regarding a particular type of study - from individual doctors and clinics - not mass studies referred to above. Secondly you left out his other quote: Saying, "We don't know" if whether or not a high percentage of people want to detransition isn't true. It's a small number, how small is the case. It's like saying we don't know exactly how fast the world is warming in 50 years, but it is warming - and then saying both sides are wrong and it's just misinformation so "we don't know what's happening" This is a spurious argument you are making.
That is too late for many. They don't hand out hormone therapy out like candy or antidepressants. You have to go through years of counseling. My friends son was indeed suicidal and he's not sure he'd have made it to 18 if he didn't start hormone therapy. It's been a game changer. Again he went through 2 years of specific therapy around his gender dysmorphia before he was able to take hormone therapy. You can't force children to go through puberty the wrong gender - there's not going back for them. We see how much discrimination and mockery they get on this very board for looking like the other gender. They won't ever be fully accepted. That's a huge issue.
As I stated before I can agree that we don’t have a lot of data or can we fully assess the accuracy of the data that we have regarding trans youth and trans people in general. That is due to one there being actually very few trans people but the stigma towards trans people also makes it hard to collect accurate data. I doubt that many people who feel they are not in the correct gender are willing to openly discuss that and share information with researchers when they might risk being ostracized by their families and communities. Again this is something we saw a lot regarding homosexuals back a few decades and why there was little solid data regarding how many people were actually homosexual back in the 70’s and 60’s or how they felt about issues. From what little we know is that those who identify as trans are a very very small part of the population. The threat of transgenders to society is vastly overblown. If trans people actually were quadruple the amount that they seem to be that wouldn’t make much of an impact on society. As such actual transitioning through hormone therapy and surgery is relatively rare compared to things like cosmetic surgery. In this case yes we should acknowledge the potential negative impacts of hormones and surgeries on youth but an outright ban seems to be a one size fits all solution to the problem. Rather leaving such treatments legal but requiring a lot of counseling and other steps before moving to those treatments would better address the situation.
I read the whole article again - I don’t believe I misrepresented anything based on the whole article. The same doctor, was very open about the topic and further acknowledged an increase in those seeking transition and that may lead to an increase in dissatisfaction with transition. He also gave his anecdotal experience at his clinic, that most people are happy. Concerning therapy- it’s a must and it is typically suggested years of therapy and even living as a different gender before surgery and usually hormones.
If this is already the standard then I really don’t see the need for a blanket ban or much more regulation. This is more evidence to me that this issue is being pushed for ideological reasons than actual concerns of health and safety.
First, I can respect your position on keeping the current standard. Also in fairness, actual gender reassignment surgery for those under 18 is rare - and especially in more reputable places like Johns Hopkins in the 1970’s and Vanderbilt recently. Those are institutions that are not financially driven. In the case of Vanderbilt I want to say they were doing 5 mastectomies a year on trans minors, and no bottom surgeries. The concern I had was more profit motivated clinics that have started to spring up that would not require lengthy therapy and living as a different gender for a year. As far as whether this is a ideological/culture war issue for those against it? Well I think we have some of that on both sides - but I would agree with you, there are a lot of people that are anti-trans and embrace an argument similar to mine because it furthers their cause in the short term. I don’t think that is everyone - but certainly a reasonably large number. What Texas, Florida and Tennessee are doing is NOT the solution. They are attempting to end any treatment. My position has to do with a lack of study on the topic and the fact that both sides have pushed a lot of misinformation.
I can agree with that and profit driven medicine can be a problem. I would put this in the same category as cosmetic surgery for young people which can also have a lot of negative effects and is done far more than gender reassignment. In both cases regulation requiring counseling and therapy before going to hormone or surgery should be the aolution rather than blanket ban. It’s obvious this being pushed primarily for ideological reasons. Trump yesterday just went after trans people and there are the countless examples of Republican politicians referring to trans people in disparaging language that wouldn’t be tolerate towards any other group in 2023. Also how as we even see here trans is being conflated with other culture war issues like drag shows and Socialism. Yes agree with that but as stated you have to consider why we don’t have so much information. 1. Is that actual transgender are small in number so any definitive polling and other data in them isn’t much because there aren’t many to begin with. 2. The stigma at transgender is making many unwilling to divulge their actual thoughts on the issue. If you want good data an important step would be having a society where elected leaders dont call them “freaks” and “imps”. So they can openly talk about their experiences and views.
I don’t know if you actually want a serious discussion on this but to give you a fair and serious response. I don’t know if you know any transgender people. All the ones I’ve known have no interest in making more people trans. They are interested in being able to live their own lives.
Look, I respect you as a poster, but the doctor was not referring to those studies but to specific ones around individual doctors and clinics. And the article stated there were larger studies. The idea that "we just don't know" about transgenderism isn't accurate. Given the small number of people who detransition (which doesn't mean they necessarily regret the decision to transition), it seems that it's fair to conclude that by far people who transition are happy with the decision.
I agree that surgery should not be done on anyone under 18 unless there is a reason for it that I am not aware of. I'm speaking strictly on hormone treatment to prevent the onset of puberty.
