Using this year's DPOY race as an example is a bit disingenuous. Giannis literally won the DPOY award in 2020 and Lopez has not. You are selectively looking at this year, which isn't even over yet, because it supports your opinion. Marcus Smart just won DPOY last year, while Mikal Bridges came in second in voting. League offenses have changed dramatically in the past decade and the DPOY award reflects that. Centers used to dominate the award, now it's split. In the past ten years, defensive anchor centers have won five of the awards (Gobert 3x, Marc Gasol, and Joakim Noah). The other awards went to Kawhi (2x), Draymond, Giannis, and Smart who are either roamers or straight up lockdown perimeter defenders. This is not to say that defensive centers are antiquated or useless, but to argue that it is "near impossible" for forwards and guards to have a similar impact as a center using DPOY awards is just wrong. GS was #1 in defensive rating last year without an anchor C at all.
No no man, I promise not. Have a look at contested shots leaders in the NBA and you will rarely find a non-C in the top 10. Which means that is a C is holding opponents to say 41% from the field, he's doing that dramatically more often than a guard holding opponents to 41%. This is true every year since the beginning of time and despite the shrinking gap, the gap remains massive. The whole reason Mobley is being touted defensively is because he's contesting so many shots which is outside the norm for a non-C. Giannis won in 2020 because he was anchoring more often and roaming less often. That's why coaches talk about defensive anchors all the time. The defensive anchor makes all the other defenders capable of succeeding. It's why an all-offense C is unplayable and an all-offense guard is not. Draymond is the defensive anchor without a doubt and so was Giannis when he won it. Only Smart and Kawhi are the exceptions. Smart - even according to Celtics fans - wasn't even the best defender on his team last season. R Williams was but he missed too many games. Again, the anchor makes it possible. The NBA has changed a lot, but this has not changed much. No one is going to convince me that Mikal Bridges was better at denying shots and points than Joel Embiid are they? Of course not, that's why I'm not basing the best defender on who wins those awards. I used the DPOY example just to demonstrate that Brook Lopez is saving the Bucks way more points than Giannis and Giannis is in his prime. Perhaps when you say "best" what you're talking about is efficiency while I'm talking about overall volume of impact on the score. Anyway, fun discussion.
I came here to say the same thing lol. He probably reached 25+ maybe twice so how would he able to average that throughout 17 games
Fair enough but I have no problem with heliocentric players as long as they're not responsible for protecting the rim. I'm more sure Sengun will be a star than I am Mobley will be a star. Mobley contested 800-something shots this season and held opponents to a low FG% - that's not going to make up the difference between the points and assists that Sengun is capable of generating over Mobley. I'd rather try to sign an anchor in FA market than try to sign a points+assists+rebounds hub which is harder to find.
The debate is whether Mobley's switchability makes him more valuable than just a pure rim protector like Gobert. That was MystikArkitect's original argument and I agree with him completely. We exploited Gobert's perimeter defense in the playoffs twice in a way that we would not be able to do against Mobley or Giannis. Draymond's perimeter defense was far more effective against our style than Gobert's. You argued about the defensive value of centers specifically, saying that guards and forwards cannot have the same impact, and used DPOY as an example. I don't take much stock in DPOY awards (Duncan never won one) but that was your argument and I'm trying to counter using like with like. You specifically mentioned that Giannis' switchability isn't enough to make up contesting shots as a center. Giannis won DPOY as 2020 as a forward. You say he anchored more back then, but Brook Lopez started at C every game that season and blocked 2.4 shots per game vs Giannis' 1.0. I think you might be misremembering how similar their roles that year were to today. And you're classifying Draymond as a defensive anchor when he doesn't start at center and his defensive impact is mainly derived from his switching ability and decent post defense rather than shot contesting. Switchability vs shot contesting is a digression because the argument is that Mobley can do both and Gobert can't. It's Mobley vs Gobert, not forwards vs centers. Whose defense does Mobley more closely resemble: Giannis and Draymond or Gobert? IMO, he's much more similar to the first two. I've never seen Giannis or Draymond exploited defensively in the playoffs whereas I've seen Gobert be targeted. That alone shows me whose defense is more effective better than any number of DPOY awards or shot contest statistics ever could.
Agreed that switchability is more valuable in today's game due to the simple fact that teams are hunting slower big men, especially in the playoffs. When you are switched to the perimeter, it doesn't really matter how good you are as a rim protector because you aren't protecting the rim out there. You'll need the entire defense to shift in order to switch you back to the rim, which is usually not happening fast enough against skilled offensive guards.
Pretty much how Purdue got played out of the tournament. Can't rim protect when you're getting dragged out into the perimeter and if you drop to prevent the drive they'll just shoot an open 3. Edey is a good example of a player who would've gone Top 3 20 years ago but unplayable today.
Gobert isn't even that slow compared to someone like Roy Hibbert, another elite rim protector that was pulled away from the hoop in the modern NBA, but we targeted him all the same. Against Utah we ran the PNR to death and killed him on switches. They tried adjusting by playing a defender behind Harden to funnel him into Gobert which worked for a little bit, but we just played Tucker more at center instead of Capela and that was that. If a DPOY center is nullified by playing Tucker at center how effective is he really? Contrast that with GS where the PNR was not viable. We played all of their slower big men off the court, but Draymond could switch on anyone and highly disrupted the PNR. Our only option was to ISO Curry which was fine, but not nearly as easy as iso'ing Gobert. Had CP3 not gotten injured it might have been enough. Still, when Curry is an equal or harder defensive matchup to Gobert that really says it all.
Agreed. I just don't know how anyone can just ignore the fact that Mobley is playing with 3 all stars, two of whom are guards that feed him with a damn bottle. The other a defensive anchor that frees Mobley up to roam. Not to mention a better coaching staff and bench. No sh*t he's winning more than Green. We have to stop pretending Mobley would be doing any better on this team with Greens responsibility on offense in this "system". It's a silly argument.
repost of what I said a couple weeks ago in a different thread Mobley is living a privileged life while Green has had to struggle for everything he’s got down in the slums The Rockets make the least amount of 3 pointers in the NBA AND shoot the lowest percentage in the league. Jalen Green drives to the rim with a paint more crowded than the DMV. His PG is KPJ. Mobley’s is Darius Garland. Mobley has several guys to take the pressure off of him and set him up for easy baskets all game. Who does Jalen Green have?
I would trade Sengun for him in an instant. Do what you need to do if you don't get Victor to move up and get Scoot. Scoot Green Eason Mobley Jabari bro... that is just dirty. a bunch guys with mean streaks (Eason,Jabari,Scoot) to play with Mobley and Green
Sure ok. Mobley types are easy to find. It's not even hard to find a good lead guard named Jalen or Jaden who's 21 or younger. 3 of them joined the league last year!
And both of them are older than Green even though they joined this season. Green also is better than both. Williams plays as a 3rd to 4th best option on team so a lot of easy one on one looks that Green simply doesn't get.
Jaden Hardy is younger. Jaden Ivey is a few days older. Jalen Williams is 10 months older. Lots of good young jadens and jalens. Not too many good Evans or Mobleys. Fun assignment for you - look up Jalen Green and Jalen Williams and see how each one is finishing at the rim this year. Is this the kind of progress we can expect to see from Green when he hits the ripe old age of Jalen Williams (21 and 300 days)
