KPJ: Can someone explain to me why he has become Clutchfans favorite whipping boy?

Nix is trash

 

And I honestly don't care about that. If he is an inefficient passer, then he needs to be an efficient scorer. If he is an inefficient scorer, then he needs to be an efficient passer. Problem is, he is neither. There has been zero evidence his entire career that he can be efficient at either things. He still makes the same boneheaded mistakes today that he made the first day he donned an NBA jersey. Even his TS% that someone said skyrocketed went from terrible to still below average. Also, as a PG, I honestly don't care how many rebounds he gets or doesn't get.

Now, none of this is saying he sucks as a player. He just sucks at being a playmaker and he lacks the individual volume scoring efficiency that real stars in the guard position have to compensate. Personally, I think his scoring efficiency would skyrocket if he plays off an actual playmaker and focuses on D. KPJ is a talented player, he is just not a playmaker.

 

Folks watch harden playmake for years, u figured these same folks praising how good kpj is at pg/play making can tell the difference.

 

I doubt anyone thinks KPJ is anywhere remotely as good as Harden (though DD did argue with me that KPJ was comparable to OKC Harden). KPJ is essentially a pu pu platter when playing the PG position. There will be some things you like and some things you dislike. At the end of the day though, that pu pu platter is not excelling really in any area for me and if that's the only thing I ordered, I am leaving hungry and cranky.

 

I never said only 5 minutes top of possession. I said 5+ minutes time of possession AND 30+ minutes AND 14+ shots per game as my cutoffs.

When you initially posted that list my immediate thought was the thing they probably all had in common was opportunity to accumulate those numbers. They are guys who play a lot, have the ball a lot and shoot a lot. The best players in the league.

I purposefully was using “~” before the 18/5/5 in my posts because as I was skimming through columns to check everything that there were plenty of players that made all the hard cutoffs but there were some players who were barely off the cutoffs and as @MrButtocks a few that were a little farther off on the rebounds than I caught when reading through.

But the intention of my point still stands. With a given baseline of minutes, shots and time of possession there is a general baseline of per game numbers that are almost a given to happen based on the opportunity given.

There is a general baseline of scoring when a player shoots the ball 14 times a game. 51 players shoot the ball at least 14 times per game. Only 3 don’t average at least 18 points per game and they average 17.7, 17.7 and 16.2. A general baseline of ~18 points.

There is a general baseline of assists per game when a player has the ball in their hands 5+ minutes per game. 36 players average more than 5 minutes TOP per game. Only 1 averages less than 5 assists and he is at 4.1, the majority of the other 35 average 5.5+.

There is a general baseline of number of rebounds per game a player will get if they play 30 minutes per game. Quite a few guards farther away from 5 than I initially caught when trying to filter columns on my phone but for a large portion of players playing 30+ minutes they are getting around 5 rebounds when playing that much.

When you combine all 3 parameters … 30 minutes per game AND 14 shots per game AND 5 minutes time of possession per game most of those players come very close to or “~”18/5/5 stat line.

Essentially as I understood it, you posted that statmuse list and framed it as a positive for KPJs ability or skills to be that young on that particular list that is populated by mostly the best players in the league.

I’m saying that given that KPJ lands in all 3 of those particular parameters and that he is in maybe 1 of 2 possible situations in the entire NBA where a team would even consider giving him those minutes, time with the ball and shots his ~19/6/6 isn’t as impressive as being a part of that list might make it seem.

This is coming from someone who believes he absolutely improved this season and to this point clearly our 2nd best overall player.

As far as Nix, I never said he could exactly replicate KPJ in the same situation. Defense matters. But as I said if efficiency and therefor wins don’t matter I absolutely believe give Nix the minutes, the ball and the shots he can come close to 18/5/5. Team would probably struggle to win 5, but counting stats can almost always been gotten at the expense of efficiency and wins. It’s just so rarely an opportunity a team is willing to give to players.

 

I’ve found that, when someone has to write this much, they generally have nothing to say. You’re no exception. Through your diatribe, you’ve yet to show a counter-example. The closest you’ve come is Simons, who is a terrible example considering he doesn’t average
5 assists OR 5 rebounds.

And you’re wrong about Nix, and the fact that you believe he’d put up anyone near 18/5/5 with KPJ’s usage makes me question your basketball knowledge.

 

The intention was obvious, you were looking for a way to suggest KPJ's production is not impressive....but it objectively is, so you were bending over backwards to come up with something because you can't accept that your narrative is wrong.

What you managed to come up with is that if you come up with a scenario that would exclude everyone but the best players in the NBA, all of them have sort of similar numbers to KPJ. You then attempted to suggest a causal link between those numbers and that scenario....which is obviously false.

Opportunity means nothing if you don't have the skill to back it up. You give Green the ball for 12 more seconds a game and his assist and rebounding numbers won't double. There's MAYBE a few players per team that would have any chance of putting up those numbers.

You got called on it, so you doubled down.

 

That's what happens with cognitive bias, it forces people into really weird situations that they'd normally never find themselves in. It can make otherwise intelligent people come off as really stupid.

He's so invested in trying to downplay KPJ's performance that he has accidentally come out saying that Daishen Nix is better than Jalen Green....because we know Jalen Green wouldn't put up KPJ's numbers if he had the ball 12 more seconds a game. Absolute insanity to suggest Nix could.

 

Way to dodge. You have no way to refute what I posted with words so just ignore it. How would Simons be my counter example? He’s the 1 player that would be your counter example to my point that 5+ minutes of TOP essentially guarantees 5 assists per game….but it would be the only 1.

And I never said give Nix KPJs exact usage and he gives you 18/5/5. I said give him the minutes, the ball and the shots and he could get close to 18/5/5 a game. Because alone those numbers don’t mean all that much. The fact that his efficiency would be worse than Westbrook and the team that dared give Nix that freedom would struggle to win 5 games makes it pretty unimpressive.

 

Arguing your side is pretty easy when you invent things that were never said.

 

By all means, explain what you think I posted that wasn't said or implied.

When you say that Nix could put up KPJ's numbers if he played 30+ minutes took 14+ shots and had the ball 5+ minutes, you are flat out saying that Nix would be better than Jalen Green in that situation because the ONLY thing Jalen is missing from that is 12 seconds of having the ball per game and he's nowhere near KPJ's numbers.

Now I know you don't intend to say these things, it's just the unintended consequences of you desperately trying to push a false narrative when the facts simply don't support you.

 

Your original assertion of the ~18/5/5 stat line being a baseline was wrong. The tilde approximation is extremely disingenuous because averaging under 4 rebounds is not averaging ~5 rebounds. You're hiding behind small numbers. Percentage wise, it's equivalent to saying someone averaging under 20 points is averaging ~25 points. Guys like Haliburton (3.7), Trae,(3.0) and Garland (2.7) are not averaging ~5 rebounds.

I understand your point and actually agree with you. Your criteria selects for some of the best players in the league. That is not KPJ, who is closer to the Brooklyn Spencer Dinwiddie or Brooklyn/Indy Caris Levert side of things. KPJ benefits from being on a team like the Rockets, where he's afforded a higher level of usage and therefore higher counting stats. But don't undermine your argument by saying zero players, and yes you said zero, fail to meet his statistical standard when some all stars don't come close.

 

KPJ is averaging ~19/6/6 and has the ball 6.8 minutes per game
Green is averaging ~21/4/4 and has the ball 4.8 minutes per game(just barely missing that 5 minute cut off, but that’s still 2 less minutes than KPJ)

Those numbers aren’t that far off to begin with. “Nowhere near KPJs numbers” isnt even accurate. Do I think Green could average 2 more assists per game if he had the ball 2 more minutes per game? I don’t think that’s some far fetched reach. That would also make him average more turnovers and our team would probably be worse than it already is.

But that’s been my point all along. Some level of points/reb/assists counting stats can almost be guaranteed to almost anyone given enough usage. Ignore efficiency, add volume, team success be damned. The quality of the player will decide just how bad that team will have to be to allow him to get his numbers.

I never said Nix could put up KPJ numbers I said I think Nix could get ~18/5/5 for a team that gave him the freedom to do so and then said that team would struggle to win 5 games. He would need way more shots than KPJ(14+), need at least the same amount of time with the ball(5+ or 6.8+) and 38-40 minutes30+) a night. And again that team would be the worst garbage the league has ever seen, punished for intentional tanking mid season, but he could still come very close to a ~18/5/5 stat line.

You want to see KPJs name on that list and believe there’s no way that it could be construed into anything but very impressive. I disagree and don’t think its bending over backwards to acknowledge real reasons why it’s possible for a player of KPJs caliber to find himself on a list with some of the best in the league.

I think even with age factored in it’s just not as impressive because of all the things I have actually said. Among the players on that initial list his efficiency is near the bottom and his team has the worst record. He gets the minutes, the ball and the shots to where his counting stats aren’t eye popping they are very near a general baseline.There is not more than 1 MAYBE 2 teams currently in existence who would give KPJ this same level of ball dominance and freedom to shoot. On a better team he’s getting the ball and shooting less.

 

As "shoot first" as KPJ is, could actually be a lot worse. He's got 4th fewest shots per game on this list. One the the lowest usage rates too. Question then is if he should be getting so many touches altogether.

But seems more a matter of his playing style (a combo guard mediocre at dual duties, instead of more filled as just a shooting guard), relative to the team (Y no kleen pass to Alpi / Bari, only TURNOVER and DRiBBL!)

 

Man, yall really take every post seriously huh lol.

 

Yup, @jordnnnn is right -- there's no difference between KPJ and Nix. We obviously would have won this game with Nix starting. Duh, y'all.

 

I did say exactly that. Several times. So many times would be very easy to quote me saying that. I’m kinda dumb and forgetful would you mind quoting me saying that so I and everyone else can see?

 

I was just curious about what would happen.