Bill Simmons: “In the whisper circles, everybody seems to think he’s going back to Houston.”

And then flame out in the first round assuming we even make the playoffs? Yeah, no thanks.

 

Rockets wouldn’t even be a play-in team adding those mediocre players to the roster

some of the names people bring up are just baffling

none of those guys would have any impact whatsoever on this team

 

I was against the harden thing at first until people asked for the alternatives. I was thinking the team needs a player who is a respected vet and good defender, someone who can bark and hold them accountable when they screw up or get lazy, force them to play the right way and command the respect…and also play solid defense. But hey guess what this guy doesn’t exist. 2019 Chris Paul isn’t coming to the rockets. Once you realize the options are harden, fvv, dlo…or some random scrub, or even nobody? Harden starts to sound a lot more attractive.

If someone can propose an alternative to Harden I’m all ears. But if not, he’s definitely preferable to signing nobody at all.

 

Are you guys saying that paying VanVleet $40 million would be a good move in the long run? How far will the Rockets or any team get with VanVleet as their best player? I say 1st round exit. KPJ is already close to Van Fleet's production and more efficient for half the price and he's not a PG. Harden is a different level of player, but an overpay still would be a problem in 2 years when its time to renew these rookie deals. It's possible that Wemby and Harden could make us a championship contender immediately, but it would be a 2 or 3 year window if Harden's contract is too high.

If you think an All-NBA player could make us a championship contender, you wait for that player even if it is next season. Sign useful guys to positive value contracts. You don't spend 40 mil on someone who isn't an All-Star. There is a better chance that one of the young Rockets become an all-star than VanVleet at this point in his career. Reggie Jackson or DRose could impact our team more than VanVleet in the long run as clutch veteran leaders. Sign a couple of guys for 10-15 mil instead. If Harrison Barnes or Middleton is available for 20 mil per they are better for this team than VanVleet as well. Heck I would rather see Draymond on a 1 or 2 year deal than VanVleet on a 4 year deal. VanVleet at 160 mil would be the worst contract in basketball.

 

One thing I would consider as an alternative to Harden would be a combo of signing Van Vleet in FA, along with trading for Nick Nurse as HC. To me, the biggest thing that the Rockets need is a culture change. Either you get by signing a no-doubt HOFer who wills the team to competitiveness (Harden), or you bring in a guy who is obviously not as talented, but could work well with his former coach to instill championship-level discipline and accountability.

Nick Nurse is definitely a personality who grates on his players, and I don't exactly expect him to be a long term hire. But if he's the Mark Jackson who brings a historically awful team to respectability, before being replaced when the players are ready to take the leap into contention, so be it. Normally you ping-pong between "players" coaches and disciplinarians, because the current roster usually needs to hear a different style of voice in their ear for change. Going directly from Silas to Abdelfattah directly probably isn't enough of a meaningful change, but putting in an abrasive Nick Nurse as a placeholder gives Abdelfattah more time to develop, and brings in an outside voice to help mold all of the talent the Rockets have accumulated.

One thing I do believe is that the current Rockets are too far gone to just have a couple of non-star veterans come in and immediately right the ship. I also am skeptical that this is fixable just by bringing in Draymond or Pat Beverley or a Jimmy Butler-like personality to bully these guys into playing the right way (and they're not signing here anyway). I really question whether Harden's laid-back leadership style will be forceful enough to get KPJ in line, and hold these guys together as they start playing in games that matter. I don't think I'm a huge fan of FVV as an acquisition in a vacuum, but if it's part of a multi-pronged strategy I have definitely heard worse ideas.

 

If none of our young guys turns out to be a franchise level player, it won't matter who we pay big money to ..... we'll be mired in mediocrity or worse.

Harden gives a team a chance to be special .... no other FA on the market does that. No other player who appears to be available does it either.

 

only a few people have been in here campaigning for Freddie…the discussion is primarily about Harden

the cap is increasing, and speaking of these young players we would have to pay in 2 years, they are all in desperate need of a PG/floor general/elite playmaker…it would aid their development tremendously

Or do u want Green, Jabari, and the rest playing the same unorganized, low IQ style of play for yet another season?

all those guys u mentioned would do nothing here and next year would be the same ol’ bad basketball with a ton of losses and the guys on the roster continuing to make dumb decisions on a consistent basis

D-Rose? Reggie Jackson? Kelly Oubre? What are they doing here that the likes of EG didn’t? Ain’t no different than signing Theis. A waste of money to fill a roster spot. We had Schroder here, what did he do? Those guys make no impact on a team this bad.

A 2 or 3 year window based on what? By the time Harden’s contract is over, Wemby would be like 23 years old and Green, Jabari, etc would be just a few years older than that. And you’re saying the championship window would be closed? It would never have even opened to begin with because you’re not going from worst in the league 3 years straight to contending 2-3 years later. We are far away from even thinking about a championship. The main priority is to develop the young guys and give them a taste of winning/playoff basketball after years of getting their asses whooped on a nightly basis. U have to crawl before u can walk.

Idk why y’all keep talking about championship contender like we’re currently on the cusp or anywhere close. None of our players would even average 25 mpg on a top team right now.

the only way someone like Middleton or Draymond is coming here is if u give them a huge overpay

Draymond isn’t signing some 1 or 2 year deal

 

There’s risk associated with a Harden deal but not enough to offset the fact that you’re getting arguably the best pg in the league. He’d automatically make the Rockets playoff prospects. Nobody else moves the needle like that.

By the time he’s done our young guys won’t have even started their prime and the lessons they’ll take away from him will be invaluable. Insert strip club joke here I suppose.

 

Only in Clutchfans is an all NBA player who has never missed the playoffs be ostracized to instead give max money to the likes of FVV. Clutchfans, never ceases to entertain me.

 

If you're basically choosing between overpaying for Van Vleet or Harden it seems much easier to do it for Harden, he fills more needs, has sentimental value, sells more tickets and is probably a better overall player now and next year than FVV despite being older.

 

If we got Harden for just 2 years, I'd be all for it. But I don't think Harden would agree to such a short contract. I am not worried about the money in the first two years. I'm worried about the last two years when he's not worth the money and our young guys rookie contracts are up.

I guess whether you want to sign Harden for a 4-year max depends on two things:
1. How much do you think he can help develop the young players.
2. How long do you think he can play at a max level.

I am not as optimistic as you about both points.

 

It’s actually about what makes sense and not really about optimism. Worrying about something 2 years after when there’s literally no better alternative doesn’t make much sense at all. You cross bridges when it gets there. You don’t continue to struggle to win 20 games for years down the road especially when you don’t even control your draft future. Thanks Tilman

He’s clearly still a elite player who impacts winning at a high level. What he does literally caters to the young core that poses the highest potential on this current roster. The same goes for Wemby if the rockets are fortune enough to land him. His game literally has never been based on being an elite athlete who runs fast. You would thinks folks would have learned their lesson by now when houston had to suffer seing westbrick put on a rockets jersey. Players with elite iq and actual skills age very well. Idiots like westbrick do not

 

Derrick Rose can teach the young guys how to be superstars and leaders much better than even Harden could. He also is willing to come off the bench and mentor younger players. Who better to mentor a young explosive guard? He plays the game the way you would want a guard to play He has completely changed his game to stay effective in the league after losing his explosiveness. Have you watched the Knicks lately, or heard any of their interviews about D-Rose? Do you wonder why he was off the table even for a Donovan Mitchell trade. There are plenty of articles just like this one:
Julius Randle credits Derrick Rose mentorship for helping him become New York Knicks leader | NBA News | Sky Sports

We are no longer in the blind tanking phase. We don't even have many roster spots left for developmental prospects. Our space now is reservered for veteran leaders and NBA ready immediate impact rookies. Schroder was a leader for the team and definitely was a positive influence. Reggie Jackson would be similar. I think it would be nice to have Harden on the team, but if the only way to get him is to overpay him by 10 mil

A 2 or 3 year window based on the Salary Cap. KPJ around 15 mil per year. KJ Martin will be an unrestricted free agent in 2024. Jalen Green, Alperen, and Garuba all will be restricted free agents in 2025 unless they are really great picks and get the Rookie extension for 25% of the cap they are eligible for. Keep in mind, in this scenario Harden is making max money 35% of the cap plus 8% raises each year. And if we somehow make it through all those resigning with all the impact players retained, we still have Jabari and Tari restricted free agency in 2025 when they would be eligible for 25% of the cap rookie extension, and at least 1 more top pick this year to pay about 7% of cap for rookie deal. By 2026 when Wemby or Scoot or other high lottery pick from 2024 is eligible for Restricted free agency, we wouldn't even have space for a qualifying offer. So, if 1 or 2 of the guys we have drafted are worth a max extension, we won't be able to sign anyone else. So we would have 2 or 3 of our young guys along with Harden with 1 year and 53 million dollars left on his contract at 36. But if one or 2 of our great picks qualifies for the Derrick Rose rule 30% of the cap it's even worse.

Same thing that happened with OKC, so many high draft picks couldn't keep them all, and kept some of the wrong ones. Westbrook was an MVP, but they should have kept Harden and Ibaka over him.

I'm all for getting Harden for the right price, but overpaying a guy in his last years is usually not a formula for long term success. If he's only coming for the money, would he even be a good leader? What is the point of paying harden 50+ million per year if you don't even think he will make us a contender?

2 years 60+ mil would get Dray I think, maybe Middleton but we won't know for sure until free agency. Teaching our young guys how to play championship basketball is worth that type of money. A guy like Danny Green, could help with that too for much cheaper though.

 

Well, it's true that if none of the kids turns out to be special, it won't matter who we throw money at. But with a smaller contract, it will be easier to go to an exit plan.

Think about Westbrook and Wall situations, the latter half of a 40M/yr contract for a bench level guy. That's something we couldn't get rid of other than a buyout. An Eric Gordon situation would be much preferred (although Stone did screw up with that, so it might not really matter LOL). I know people will disagree with me. I expect in two years, Harden will be declining to a role player level, missing games due to injuries.

 

I don't know. The league is littered with deadweight contracts that mire the teams in mediocrity because they were shortsighted signings. I have a feeling that signing Harden because he's the best alternative now is shortsighted and we will regret it down the road.

 

Let me get this straight... you believe that Harden, whose game is based on skill, shooting, stopping, and strength, is going to age the same as players like Wall or Westbrook, who can't shoot and have games based on athleticism?

 

Is it? Lets hear some examples of harden’s caliber that’s deadweight

I remember cp3 being called this deadweight untradeable. He then continued to make all nba and all star teams and leading teams in the playoffs

 

Derrick Rose? Really?

D-Rose is a mediocre player who makes nobody better. He’s willing to come off the bench for a terrible team? When did he say that? And even if he is, it’s not like he’s a legit starter in this league to begin with. Have u watched the Knicks lately? D-Rose has played in 27 games averaging 13 mpg. The main reason for their turnaround is that they finally addressed their PG situation by signing a damn good player in Brunson. Guess who else really needs to solve their PG situation? The Rockets

We are no longer in the blind tanking phase, yet u want to sign a bunch of guys who would make little impact when it comes to wins and losses. We barely have any more spots left for developmental prospects which is why it’s imperative that we bring in someone who can help their on-court development. What these guys need is a floor general. A legit PG. An elite playmaker. Someone who makes guys better and can organize the offense. Not a bunch of mediocre role players, none of whom are even floor generals or real PG’s.

OKC not being able to keep all their young players isn’t accurate. They could have quite easily, they were just stupid and embarrassingly cheap choosing to keep Perkins over James Harden…they could have easily kept their core of KD, Russ, Harden, and Ibaka, and the cap increased from there which would’ve made it even easier for them to keep all 4, but they made 1 of the worst decisions in NBA history instead

basing a 2 or 3 year window on the salary cap is way too narrow minded thinking…1st u ignore that the salary cap will be going up tremendously, then u assume that we will want to pay all these young guys, that they’ll all end up worth paying, and that they’ll be worth and receive their max earning potential…that’s not how things work, and teams don’t keep every single young player they draft or acquire

Going off your post, Denver should currently be paying Jokic, Murray, MPJr, Jerami Grant, Monte Morris, Malik Beasley, and Bones Hyland.

and then u act like free agency is the only way to build a team…Suns had Booker, Ayton, and CP3 all making big money, so how did Kevin Durant end up there?

How did the Rockets get CP3 in 2017 with no cap space?

KPJ has non-guarantees all throughout his contract…KJ and Garuba are dime a dozen players that can easily be replaced…Tari isn’t getting some 25% of the cap rookie extension

As for Jalen Green, Jabari, Sengun, and whoever we draft this year, sign all those mediocre players and it will just be more of the same bad basketball yet again. Harden has a proven track record of making guys much better. If u still suck playing next to James Harden, then something is wrong. He would give them a chance to play in meaningful games/playoff games. I’d rather see Jalen, Jabari, or Sengun in a playoff series or games that matter before throwing them a max extension. I also fear for their development if they continue playing in the unorganized low IQ style of basketball they’ve been accustomed to so far.

and that’s not even getting into the fact that there will be no such thing as a championship window the next 2-3 years because this roster is so far away from that level and these players are so far away from contributing to a team on that level…but by the of Harden’s contract, they won’t even be in their prime or will just be entering it while having had Harden to help develop their on-court game and having had a taste of winning/playoff basketball instead of a bunch of losing

it has been explained countless times all throughout this thread and many others why we should sign Harden even tho he’s not making us a contender

See, this is what I don’t get. Harden would only come here for the money, but the same notion doesn’t apply to the likes of Draymond or Middleton. Why? Why on earth would they be coming here if not for the money? To win? For the kickbacks? Because they just love Houston so much? If u think Green is signing a 2/60 deal with Houston or Middleton is coming here for anything short of a HUGE deal, u are sorely mistaken. Anyone we’re signing this offseason is here for the money. We are the worst team in the league 3 years straight. We are seen as dysfunctional right now. Anyone coming here is doing so because they were overpaid or they’re some mediocre player promised a prominent role which they will use to try and build up their value. Danny Green literally just fled this team because he wants to win.

 

this notion that our nonexistent championship window will close just makes no sense to me

Wemby in his early 20’s…the current young players who are still on the roster 3 or 4 years from now in their mid-20’s

And that’s when our window will be closed? That’s when it will just start to open at the earliest

How are u the worst team in the league 3 straight years and signing James Harden closes your 2-3 year nonexistent championship window?

 

Khris Middleton signed a 5/178 deal back in 2019…an average of 35.6 mil/yr…he would make 40 mil next year if he opted in

he is just 2 years younger than Harden

Do people really think he’s coming here on some 1 or 2 year deal

y’all give it up for our newly signed splash free agent signing Khris Middleton and his 4/160 deal