we should teach history. full stop. that includes the slave trade, the civil war, including the build up to it, and the war itself, and later, Jim Crow and the Civil Rights movement. CRT assumes a particular interpretation of that history, and assigns guilt to a certain ethnic group in the present. history is shared experience. CRT is "look what you did to us."
There is no "assigning of guilt". CRT is all those things you listed with the addition of "and those things like slavery and Jim crow is why we have this economic disparity today:https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/sites/default/files/fiscal-facts/ff_detailed_5alt2.png" The whole "make white people feel guilty" is a right wing agir prop meme at this point. It's a way to gaslight people who don't follow this stuff closely to just assume that's what it teaches. It doesn't teach white people to be guilty. It teaches Americans why the median white household today has 1000% of the wealth of the median black household. That's it. Full stop. Any accusation of "teaching guilt" is a strawman or at best an admission and projection that you personally feel guilty about this
No, but well-adjusted people should be aware of the benefits they receive in the world they live in based on their color or social status. As a tall, white male - I have from a social perspective received a lot of benefits. A lot of subconscious assumptions and opinions are made based on my appearance, and most of them are positive. It is harder to be a woman or a minority in the Western world in a lot of ways. So while I am not responsible for the current social order - I have a responsibility to be aware of it and be aware that other groups do not get the same benefit.
“Establishing collective guilt”. That’s a boogeyman. Unless you can show me where teachers are literally telling white people, “you are guilty” or “you should feel guilty”. Guilt is a feeling, a reaction. That’s up to the individual to process the facts behind systemic racism and white privilege. Don’t want to feel guilty? Then use your brain and think about how to productively respond to facts. If teachers are literally saying you are guilty or you should feel guilty, then they should be fired. But it seems to me that is largely a bullshit fabrication to twist education into something it’s not. I think there are easy answers that every person of reasonable intellect should agree with. Education regarding systemic racism is an answer. Hell, seems like half of America doesn’t even believe that systemic racism exists.
This is the entire issue regarding CRT. Some people do not want to accept that slavery and Jim Crow is the biggest causal factor for economic disparity. It is far simpler to say (1) that was a long time ago, and (2) if black culture wasn’t so messed up and if black people weren’t so lazy, they would have pulled themselves up from their bootstraps and achieved the same success that other ethnic groups achieved. So screw them because they won’t even help themselves. I would be curious. @AroundTheWorld @basso. Do you believe that Jim Crow and slavery are the biggest causal factors of economic disparity for the black community? Or do you believe that black culture and laziness are the biggest causal factors?
I believe in individual opportunity and responsibility. Plenty of examples of people of all colours and backgrounds having achieved all kinds of success, including becoming US President. I believe in meritocracy.
If we invested in disadvantaged people (regardless of race) there would be a positive ROI as instead of having people who are a drain on society through crime, the criminal justice system, medicaid, etc....you would flip them into life long tax payers. It's a huge windfall of hundreds of thousands of dollars or more for each individual you flip. To me, it's just smart business.
I understand what you are saying and I think a humane and compassionate society should look after its most disadvantaged members. Things like good free education for kids, free meals for kids, helping people overcome homelessness, etc. A social safety net. Interestingly, rich leftist governed cities seem to be worst at providing that, and least compassionate about it. What e.g. San Francisco is doing is shameful and inhumane. I just don't think shaming people based on the race they happened to be born into is the answer, and neither is mass blanket advantageous treatment, because it perpetuates a victimhood mentality rather than supporting strive, and possibly creates resentment and new unfairness, since it necessarily requires a hierarchy of victimhood, based on race or other factors.
I’ve worked on projects in “Enterprise Zones” where investment and tax breaks are encouraged in traditionally disadvantaged neighborhoods. The argument often made for those isn’t just economic justice but that it is a drain on the overall economy of a city to have areas that have problems of endemic poverty. So trying addressing economic justice is an overall benefit it the whole economy. Endemic poverty in many of these neighborhoods also isn’t due to inherent failings of the people there but development patterns have been driven by issues of race. In many cities the buildings of freeways were deliberately routed through poorer minority neighborhoods even though it would’ve been more efficient to route them through other neighborhoods. The Twin Cities is a particular example where the freeways make several jogs that seemingly don’t make much sense until you look at what neighborhoods they go through and which they avoid. Things like this are part of our history and it is understanding things like this that explain why some neighborhoods have endemic poverty and why it’s important to address that.
Certainly the Bay Area has a lot of problems but every major city in the US including in Texas and Florida has homeless. There is even rural homelessness in rural areas and the reddest areas of the country are some of the poorest. Mississippi for example. Just making this a problem of the rich Leftitsts cities ignores the extent of poverty isn’t he US and frankly is used as an excuse by Red states to distract from endemic poverty in their own states. Everyone keeps on saying this is about shaming one race but it is undeniable that for almost all of the history of this country that one race was advantaged and legally so. I agree that white people today aren’t responsible for slavery or the actions of the past but acknowledging the built in advantages is necessary to understanding why things are the way they are.
Yeah but I asked a fairly straightforward question, which I’ll rephrase to simplify things. Do you believe that slavery and Jim Crow are meaningful causal factors for economic disparity for the black community? Or do you think that was decades ago and it’s a bullshit excuse?
An equal distribution of resources from birth (with everyone starting from scratch) would be necessary for a truly fair merit-based system, but it is an unrealistic and undesirable ideal. Thus, I believe meritocracy is an ideal that is unachievable, and even if it were possible, it could lead to an even more powerful elite class and a weaker non-elite class. The already significant advantage that those with more power and resources hold over those with less would only be exacerbated. Instead of the unrealistic goal of meritocracy, I believe in a pragmatic solution that combines merit-based principles with a focus on helping everyone reach a basic level of resources and providing them with the tools to move up from there. Unfortunately, the US is far from achieving this, as evidenced by the growing wealth disparity and significant access to resource disparities, including inequity in primary education. Additionally, the public and private sectors often prioritize connections over merit, and societal bias against certain groups further exacerbates these issues.
Yes, they were, I think that is obvious. But that doesn't mean children today should be shamed because of their skin colour.
