Did Jordan force his way onto super teams? Or did he work with his team/organization to build a super team? There's quite a difference in what Jordan did and what Lebron and KD have done. Lebron made a big spectacle out of leaving and found another super free agent to join him -- and almost assuredly this was in the works amongst them during the season (collusion!). KD joined a 73 win team that had previously eliminated him from playoffs. There is nothing in the world that will ever compare to what KD did to win that first ring. He's a great player. Greatest Longhorn basketball player by a mile. But he didn't want the challenge. He wanted the jewelry but didn't want to work to get it. In normal life, we'd call that a thief... I kid. He "earned it." By taking the path of least resistance. Some would call that "smart." But at a certain point it's like cmon dude... Also, and admittedly this was 20+ years ago and was a preteen during the Jordan/Rockets/Jordan years. But was Pippen ever a "star?" Did Pippen really ever do anything without Jordan? Jordan at least was taking the team to the playoffs but just couldn't get past the ultra-physical Detroit. Pipped was a very good player -- but he was nothing like a KD, Curry, Wade, Lebron, Klay... he's more like a Draymond level player. The best second tier star you can get, I suppose.
How did Jordan "work with his team" to make his super team? Was he scouting talent and hand picked Pippen? Did he join interviews to hire Phil Jackson? Or was he just playing hard on his team same as everybody else and he was just lucky his GM was 10x better than everyone else? I dunno why you are trying to make a distinction between MJ, Lebron and KD...as if MJ earned his way to a super team when he just sat on his ass and waited for Krause to give him talent. If anybody "earned" being on a super team it is Lebron and KD cuz they actually did something to be on a super team whether its joining one or forming one. MJ is like a trust fund baby he got talent cuz Krause got every player he needed. The Jordan Bulls got to ECF when MJ was playing baseball. They were pretty good on their own right and I'm sure Pippen got further without Jordan than Jordan without Pippen. MJ's era was weak af you got all these hall of fame generational talent like Barkley and Hakeem but they are on terrible teams. Meanwhile MJ is rolling with a big 3 of his own and a deep ass bench with Kukoc, Kerr etc There's a reason why 2 three peats happened yeah MJ himself is really good but the Bulls as a team also just out talented everyone else they never even reached Game 7 during their run thats how stacked they are. Thats why its funny to see people get mad at KD for joining GSW and Suns when MJ is basically did the same thing except his GM did everything for him he never had to do anything.
if his gm was 10x better then if you form a quote unquote super team you are essentially being your own GM.
I’m quite certain that Michael Jordan was involved in discussions with owners and management about the team roster and what he needed to get past Detroit. You don’t think there is a difference in MJ staying on his team to win rings instead of quitting to find/form a better team elsewhere when he couldn’t get past Detroit? You think that’s the same as KD joining a 73 win team that had just eliminated him from the playoffs? Interesting… I don’t even know how to respond to such silliness. Were you alive back then? You seriously don’t see a difference in joining LITERALLY the team that won the most games ever AND eliminated you from playoffs compared to staying on one team basically your entire career and working with management to build a better team??? I just can’t. This is pure nonsense. Like you have to go out of your way to make that make sense. And MJs era was basically football with a basketball. KD, curry, all these generational talents wouldn’t last a season in the 80s and 90s. Lebron is the only star today that would definitively be a star back then. Prob harden too. the bulls were very good. But no, mj did not have super teams. Not in the way Kd and Lebron did. Not a single guy on his team was ever “the guy” on their own team. Pippen tried. He failed. Mj had very good teams that were well built and complemented each other. There was no other “star.” klay, curry, wade, Bosh, Lebron and kd are all (especially at the time) star players capable of leading their own teams.
If MJ was so good at these GM discussions how come he has been the worst gm ever? Even in Charlotte last year who did they draft? James Boughknight, TJ Thor, Kai Jones? This year they chose Mark Williams over Jalen Duren (lmao). Who did MJ draft during his wizards and bobcats tenure again? What we can see time and time again MJ is a hilariously bad GM, its almost opposite how good he was as a player. But yeah ok give him credit for GMing during his Bulls days The fact that the Bulls were so good is proof MJ had no part in that cuz if he was part of it the Bulls would have been horrible. MJ's been part of front office discussions for decades now has he ever made a good team even once his entire career? But you think he gave the Bulls instruction on how they can get past Detroit? MJ stayed because his team got good before he got fed up and left. He got drafted in 1984 and Pippen and Phil Jackson arrived in 1989. So thats just 5 years of MJ "staying on his team" and getting swept by the Pistons before they got good. In comparison Lebron got drafted by Cleveland in 2003 and he made The Decision in 2010. KD got drafted in 2007 and only left in 2016. So in reality both Lebron and KD put up with BS longer than MJ. MJ never had to leave cuz Krause got the Jordanners ready for him. In a hypothetical world where MJ's GM was horrible then he would never win a ring cuz he proved he cant win a ring alone. You think he'd be like Hakeem and stay on the same team for decades with crack heads and busts? This is the same dude who retired 3x so I highly doubt it he'd be that patient and loyal lmao. Its just as ridiculous as you suggesting MJ had some part in the GMing of the Bulls. Comparing Curry to 80s basketball is like comparing a modern day Ferrari to the first Ford Model Ts. You think a Ferrarri would be drivable in the 1900s? Of course not, the roads would pop the tires and all the rocks would destroy the car underbelly. Does that mean the Ford Model T is superior to a Ferrarri today? The talent in the league today is miles better than MJ's time. Put all the 80s players in the L today 95% of them wouldnt make the cut and except for a few generstional superstars majority of the rest would be end of bench cheerleaders. Oh I'm definitely old enough, I was born in 1984 aka the the best draft ever. The difference is I never followed 80s bball so I wasnt indoctrinated in the MJ cult and drank gatorade and wore nikes and watched space jam. I can view MJ objectively and see the flaws in his cv whereas y'all just throw logic out the window and credit everything to MJ. IIRC Krause and MJ werent even friends and Krasue tried to undermine MJ at every step but you think MJ had a hand in forming the Bulls and hiring Phil Jackson? Wtf.
Huh? MJ never did anything his GM Krause scouted and signed all his teammates. All MJ did was be a great player his GM did all the rest. In comparison KD and Lebron had to be great players and GMs as well. Lebron had to make his own super team and that took effort and swallowing his pride to go to another team. KD had to sacrifice his friendship with Russ, they were like brothers had been on the same team for more than a decade. Both of them had to go outside their comfort zone and leave their territories cuz they wanted to be among the best of all time. If they stayed in their teams like MJ did they'd be another Hakeem, almost lose in the playoffs despite clearly being the best player in the series and then end up ringless or with just 1 or 2 rings if they were lucky. Its not like Lebron and KD coasted and rode their teammates to a ring, they legit earned their keep and won finals mvp, in Lebron's case he was B2B MVP and Finals MVP so you really cant say he was slacking off and coasting on his team. They had a harder road winning a ring than MJ who never even had a game 7 during his Bulls run. Despite never leaving his team MJ had a much easier road than Lebron and KD cuz his team was just that much more stacked than his opponents.
He was. Fortunately for him, they ignored the moves he wanted made. At least in building the original 3-peat team. The only difference is there was no unrestricted free agency in Jordan’s day, which ironically, he tried to lead a strike to get. There is no need to find a better team when your mgmt builds a great one around you. LeBron gave the Cavs just as much time to build a contender around him as Jordan. Yet guys like Spud Webb and Mugsy Bouges survived. Ok…. Pippen, Rodman, Kukoc, Harper and shooters ain’t a Superteam? Ok…. He failed by almost getting the Bulls to the ECF’s when Jordan never got past round 1 without him? Ok…. Aside from 3 teammates being in the HOF and 1 being named Top 50 ever, I guess you’re right.
Pippen was way way better than you’re giving him credit for here. The guy finished 3rd in MVP voting to Dream in 1994. He was far more than a Draymond. He carried that team to 55 wins with no MJ. He finished in the top 10 in MVP voting in 5 different seasons. He’s one of the 50 best players in league history. I say all this and I still can’t stand him, especially as a rockets fan. But he’s far better than what you’re saying. Way more than second tier. Second tier stars don’t get MVP votes over multiple seasons.
MVPs make different contributions from one final to the next because someone has to get it - Iggy got an MVP on one of those GSW teams and I doubt that he is going to make any GOAT lists. All we know is that MJ and Olajuwon never get significant hate from the masses and that's a function of displaying loyalty to your team and having a wholesome storyline to one's career. Olajuwon's rings are worth 10 times more than KD's rings in terms of how much those rings increase the guy's popularity. And historically they will leave a more lasting imprint - I highly doubt that KD's number will be retired by GSW, which is probably going to be awkward and painful as f*ck for him.
LMFAO Durant was just the guy between Harrison Barnes and Andrew Wiggins, they didn't need him to win a title. His rings mean absolute jack s**t when comparing him to GOATs. LeBron was the pivot of his title teams, even if I hate the way he went about it. Durant was a spineless joke who knew he was never gonna lead a team, so he had to join one already there. He's an all time level talent with a role player personality, he doesn't have it in him. Westbrook did what he wanted, Kyrie did what he wanted, and Draymond Green publicly punked him every chance he got. If Durant wasn't such a beta the OKC dynasty would have been historic, instead Westbrook ran roughshod and took whatever shot he wanted. He also should have put his foot down on Harden getting traded.
Brooklyn could've been historic too. Beta or hooper or whatever you want to call Durant, he had his chances and still does. Let's give him credit - he figured out how to request a trade by now. Maybe next he'll tell CP3 to shut up when CP3 inevitably tries his hardass routine with Durant. If he is able to do that and stick around that PHX team, then he'll cease being "Beta" for most part and can start building proper legacy.
He was a worker when drafted and then became lazier and lazier and more sensitive. The original concept of the Brooklyn Big 3 which originated during the 2016 Rio Olympics included Kyrie and DA Jordan. Who includes DeAndre Jordan as part of a big 3.......
I'm pretty sure the Bulls, Jazz and the Rockets were the only teams in from 92-98 with 2 Top 50 NBA players of all time, and you could argue Drexler was past his peak for most of that stint. Even in 91, the Lakers with Magic and Worthy was past their primes. So not superteams that we think of from the 80s, 00's, or Lebron/Durant's teams. But for that 8 years period from those were the most talent teams in the sense of apex talent, and it makes sense as those 3 were the only teams to reach multiple Finals in that time span. Also Pippen got to 2nd round as the lead guy in 1 season with the Bulls and WCS with Portland his 1st season before his body broke down. That is more than Bosh, Kyrie, AD, or Love. The KD to Warriors things was ridiculous but that to me is in a different category than any other superteam/colllab.
These long form responses are too hard to follow. You're "countering" arguments I never made. I never suggested MJ was a good evaluator of talent. I simply said he worked with his organization to build a better team. That doesn't in any way suggest that he was at the draft board or scouting. That's a strawman. I don't even know where to start with everything you said...
What moves did he want? And how do you know he wasn't involved or approving of the moves they did make? I genuinely don't remember what is public on that subject. Who on the Bulls was on the level of Klay or Steph? Uhhh nobody said Curry couldn't make it because he was shorter. Mugsy and Spud probably weighed the same as Curry and were much stronger. Pippen, Rodman, Kucoc, Harper is not the same as Curry, Klay, KD, and Dray -- all in their prime. Those are top tier role players. You want to argue Pippen was a legit "star" fine...still not close to as stacked a team as that KD team was. The fact that Hou put them to 7 games shows just how insanely good Harden was that year -- and how well built our team was in terms of chemistry and synergy. Care to add context? Look at the roster comparisons. Do you think can swap Pippen out with Jordan and he'd have even won as many regular season games? Completely different rosters, completely different competition, completely different bodies in terms of player growth. It's well documented that Jordan realized through those series he had to get much much stronger. You think if you make the HOF you are automatically as good as a Kevin Durant?
He finished 3rd with 7 votes to Admirals 24 to Hakeems 66...and wasn't the voting very diff back then and home team broadcasters would almost always throw their guys 1st place votes? Could be wrong on that aspect. You're right though, he was better than Dray. But he was no KD.
