update3: More than 30,000 dead in Turkey and Syria after major earthquakes

Also depth of the earthquake very much matters in how much damage it causes. This is just basic phyics. If the epicenter is closer to the surface the distance the waves from it travels to buildings will be less than a deeper earthquake so yes a very deep 9.0 might cause less damage than a shallow 7.0.
https://phys.org/news/2016-08-difference-shallow-deep-earthquakes.html
How shallow, deep earthquakes differ
"A quake's destructive force depends not only on its strength, but also on location, distance from the epicenter and depth. Quakes can strike near the surface or deep within the Earth. Most quakes occur at shallow depths, according to the U.S. Geological Survey. Italy's quake was very shallow, originating between 2 1/2 miles (4 kilometers) and 6 miles (10 kilometers) underground, according to Italy's geological service and the USGS. The magnitude measurements also varied slightly—between magnitude 6 and 6.2. By contrast, the 6.8 quake in Myanmar was deeper—at 52 miles (84 kilometers), which is considered an intermediate depth.

Shallow quakes generally tend to be more damaging than deeper quakes. Seismic waves from deep quakes have to travel farther to the surface, losing energy along the way. Shaking is more intense from quakes that hit close to the surface like setting off "a bomb directly under a city," said Susan Hough, a USGS seismologist."

 

Yes that is another factor in damage. Again there are multiple factors that can influence how severe the damage from an earthquake is. Building construction is the one that humans can most control but ultimately there is a limit to how strong a building can be built.

In a situation like this yes very likely shoddy and inapropriate construction likely contributed to many of the building failures. The reason why I'm arguing this though is that it would be false and misleading to claim that given current standards and technology that buildings shouldn't fail at all in large quakes.

 

Here's another one of those comparison videos. Size and energy release are different.

 

Turkey probes contractors as earthquake deaths pass 33,000


https://apnews.com/article/2023-tur...ent-business-658d897fe02316c474a8cc8078b690a3


They are arresting contractors that built some of the buildings that collapsed.

 

FYI

 

Good for Segun and I’m guessing other Turkish players will also be doing similar things to help

 

Arrests warrants for people involved in construction in the region and also reports of looting and civil unrest.

 

Some more info regarding how and why these buildings are collapsing. From what I can tell from the pics and video most of these buildings appear to be concrete structural frame with masonry walls. That is a very common way of building throughout the World. Concrete by itself isn't very strong laterally nor is in masonry. In the video I posted from Haiti I noted that many of the masonry walls the bricks / concrete blocks are really relying on gravity and their own weight. When a lateral force like an earthquake hits the bricks will just pop out of the wall whiich is very visible in much of the damage in Haiti and in a lot of the pics and video from this quake where you see piles of bricks and other masonry just lying where a wall was.

A modern concrete frame relies upon steel reinforcing (rebar) inside to resist the lateral forces in a wall or column. In the concrete slab floors above the ground the steel keeps the concrete floor from just sagging and collapsing between supports. where floors, columns and walls meet steel connections are relied upon to handle the moment force (the rotational force at the joint caused by the load on the structure multiplied by distance from the joint) and lateral forces.

During an earthquake failure of non-structural walls can be deadly by killing people with falling masonry but the building might still stand. When there's failures in columns or the connections between floors and columns is where the building collapses. In a modern concrete structure at the floor connections it is almost completely reliant on the steel connections. If those fail is where the floors will collapse. As the higher level floors fall onto the lower floors that adds more weight to the lower floors and you get a cascade failure which is what is meant by "pancaking".

What we are likely seeing in a lot of the damage is that connections between the walls and the floors are failing. This could be due to that they are improperly built either with poor welds, not enough steel, or poor quality steel. From reports it sounds like the last two factors are very likely factors.

Another problem with a large shallow earthquake like this is that while the structural frame might be well built and able to handle shaking of the earthquake the bearing stress of the ground fails in liquefication. Imagine the ground is like packed flour in a pan. If you try to mix in nuts or chocalate chips in it it will be difficult. If you suddenly shake it up the flour will become loose and the nuts and chips will mix in easily. Looking at the images where you see a largely intact building but lying on it's side or partially sunken in that is likely from liquefication.

The other problem is with the earth shifting so one part of the building foundation moves away from the other part of the building. Looking at the images where you see a building that looks like it is twisted with part of the building still relatively intact and another part on it's side or sheared off that is likely from that.

 

If this is your field why are you not famility with the difference between intensity and magnitude? Or that the distance moved isn't what matters but the acceleration and peak velocity. The maps in turkey show the intensity wasn't high enough to knock down modern buildings yet it did. This was a tragedy that should not have happened.

 

Nearly all continental earthquakes are shallow and less than 20 km in depth. The ones that are really deep tend to occur with oceanic crust and cause things such as tsunamis. Focusing on the depth is not really productive. The amount of shaking is what needs to be paid attention too. A low magnitude shallow quake can cause more shaking then a high magnitude quake as the type of rock and sediment matters a great deal. How the waves are reflected and concentrated matters a great deal.

 

As stated yes I’ve addressed the differences between intensity and magnitude. That’s why shallow earthquakes are deadlier. I even provided source materials for it. The maps you provided show that intensity was “violent” which according to the link your provided results in
“Damage considerable in specially designed structures; well-designed frame structures thrown out of plumb. Damage great in substantial
buildings, with partial collapse. Buildings shifted off foundations.”
https://www.usgs.gov/programs/earthquake-hazards/modified-mercalli-intensity-scale
That is saying right there that even in modern structure can still suffer considerable damage.

Also since you insist that movement doesn’t matter how does a foundation maintain integrity if part of it is moved 12 feet?

Also you’ve stated things like no buildings collapsed in the 1989 SF Bay earthquake. That’s simply not true.

I’m not sure why you’re arguing this so much. It seems like your read something about a couple of factors and are jumping to a conclusion. I’m arguing it because this is my field and it would be misleading and irresponsible to make a claim that no modern building should collapse in a large quake like this. Yes modern buildings built to current codes should provide a much better chance of survival in a quake but we cannot guarantee that they will not fail in some way.

 

No it wasn't violent in cities where there were many buildings collapsed. It was only strong or very strong - look at the map and cross reference the cities.

 

Videos show Turkey's Erdogan boasted letting builders avoid earthquake codes

https://www.npr.org/2023/02/13/1156512284/turkey-earthquake-erdogan-building-safety

 

I've been wondering if this earthquake will cause 'election suspensions' and a pivot to a full-on dictatorship, then subsequent boot from NATO.

 

But do you acknowledge that there are many areas where alit was violent and as your own link shows that even modern well built structures can be damaged then.

In other words your own material shows that this earthquake was powerful enough in several places that even modern buildings built to code would still likely be severely damaged.

That is the pont I’ve been trying to make that yes modern well built buildings will greatly improve the chances of survival. It would be misleading to claim that no modern buildings should collapse in a 7.8 quake.

 

I haven't spoken on this thread, but man, I am dishearten by the large loss of life in Syria and Turkey is such a noteworthy and interesting country.. someone who loves history with absolutely some of the most beautiful people in the world ( particularly Turkish women in my humble opinion) - such a great history and unfortunately this was a historical earthquake - my prayers are with everyone that been affected

This is personal in some silly way for me because I've met Turkish people from a MMO game I've been playing and you get to know these people and it's rough

 

My statement is that the modern building that collapsed should not have collapsed - it has nothing to do with the fact the earthquake is 7.8 or 6.5 or 9.0. It has to do with the fact that the intensity of shaking in the cities should not have been sufficient to collapse those buildings. I don't see any cities in the violent shaking areas of the map - would you tell which cities experienced violent shaking?

The modern buildings were collapsing in areas of strong shaking or very strong. That should not have resulted in more than light damage.

 

You've made absolutist statements about modern construction that are misleading and as a professional it would ve very irresponsible for me to make. Your own sources show that in a 7.8 earthquake can result in damage that would take down modern buildings.

In this case yes it does appear that many buildings including the cities were not in the most severe shaking area (not the city of Antakya and Pazaricik does appear to be in the severe shaking area right on the border of the violent shaking area) Further as noted there are many other factors regarding what would take a building down that cannot be controlled by quality of construction such as liquefication of soil. You're only looking at one factor and with very limited information and jumping to an absolutist conclusion.

I don't know if you're continuing to argue this just for the sake of argument. As a someone who's field this is I'm avoiding claims that could be lead to false confidence or misunderstandings about the nature of construction.

 

The death toll has crossed 36,000 and according to some reports could double soon. There will still be deaths from cold, loss of infrastructure bringing in food and water.

 

While I am pointing out that it is still very possible that a modern building built to current codes will fail in an earthquake of this size and magnitude there is mounting evidence that not enforcing building codes and shoddy constructure very likely contribued to many if not most of the deaths.
[EDIT] I see this as posted already.
https://www.npr.org/2023/02/13/1156512284/turkey-earthquake-erdogan-building-safety
Videos show Turkey's Erdogan boasted letting builders avoid earthquake codes
February 13, 20232:10 PM ET

ISTANBUL — As Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan struggles to defend his response to last Monday's devastating 7.8 magnitude earthquake, videos from a few years back have emerged showing him hailing some of the housing projects that crumbled, killing thousands of people.

Critics say contractors were allowed to skip crucial safety regulations, increasing their profits but putting residents at risk.

The videos have fueled public outrage over slow efforts to help residents in the aftermath of the massive earthquake — the world's deadliest in over a decade — that killed more than 35,000 people in Turkey and neighboring Syria, and left many injured and without a home, food or heating in the middle of winter.

In one video, taken during a campaign stop ahead of Turkey's March 2019 local elections, Erdogan listed some of his government's top achievements — including new housing for the city of Kahramanmaras, also known as Maras, near the epicenter of last week's quake.

"We solved the problem of 144,156 citizens of Maras with zoning amnesty," Erdogan said, using his term for the construction amnesties handed out to allow contractors to ignore the safety codes that had been put on the books specifically to make apartment blocks, houses and office buildings more resistant to earthquakes.

Engineers and architects say the lack of safety features designed to absorb the shock of earthquakes likely contributed to the soaring death toll.

In another 2019 campaign stop, in southern Turkey's Hatay province, Erdogan was again eager to tout the housing his government was creating.

"We have solved the problems of 205,000 citizens of Hatay with zoning peace," he said, using another name for the amnesties being used to facilitate construction practices that could leave buildings unable to withstand earthquakes.

The videos were reported by Turkish news sites such as Duvar and Diken, and have circulated widely.

Erdogan has acknowledged some initial problems with the country's response to the earthquake, but he has said no government could be ready for a disaster of this magnitude.

Duvar cited a senior Istanbul city official, Bugra Gokce, who gave a breakdown of the tens of thousands of building amnesty certificates granted before the 2018 general election in 10 provinces struck by the earthquake. They included more than 40,000 amnesty certificates in the hard-hit Gaziantep province, the official said.

The amnesty meant that some builders had to pay a fine but their construction projects could go forward if they didn't meet code restrictions, according to Turkish media reports.

However, Turkey's main opposition leader, Kemal Kilicdaroglu, said that "If there is one person responsible for this, it is Erdogan."

And the country's main association of engineers and architects weighed in with a scathing attack on the practice of amnesties for builders, saying, "Zoning amnesty is an invitation to death."

The association added, "In our country, zoning amnesties have been one of the most important incentives for illegal construction and have made it uncertain for the society to live in healthy and safe houses." The group said the practice is used "for the sake of political gain," and must be stopped.

Turkey's Duvar news site posted a tweet from Erdogan from 2013, marking the anniversary of the 1999 Marmara earthquake that killed more than 17,000 people. It said: "Buildings kill, not earthquakes. We need to learn to live with earthquakes and take measures accordingly."