I never said it was objective. I wasn't the one who said "this is objective truth". In all matters that are primarily cultural there is a lot of subjectivity. Maybe it's because I believe that not accepting a group of people and saying that my preferences for how I think of them trumps their own is bigotry. I don't know what you're wondering about. Are you trying to insinuate there is some darker motivation?
I will and do call it bigotry. I fully understand it is harsh but in this case the willingness to not accept a group and insist on treating them based on your own belief and preference that you don't recognize their beliefs that term fits. I mean if I were argue that the Philipines wasn't a real country and refused to call Filipinos "Filipinos" becasue they aren't a unique people that would be bigotry towards Filipinos.
You don't. It isn't a crime to be rude biased or bigoted towards someone. That is your Right. Being decent though would mean that you are willing to treat them as they would like to treat you. And yes being offended is a choice. So why get so worked up about trans people?
I'm going to ask everyone a simple straightforward question. Do you beleive that people can actually change genders?
lately I have the sense your account has been hacked, and taken over by someone less…mature than the way I remember the old RJ.
I think it's like sexual orientation. Someone might be bisexual, and their sexual preferences might shift slightly to one sex or the other, but I don't know if I'd say that counts as a change in their sexual orientation. Similarly, a person might be "gender fluid" because they don't have a strong internal sense of identifying as male or female. They may feel more masculine one day and more feminine another day, perhaps. I don't think this counts as a change in their gender either.
Referring to a man as "him" isn't being biased or bigoted. Refusing to pretend he's a woman isn't biased or bigoted. Neither is refusing to pretend he's a toaster or a dragon. I won't pretend they're something they're not (which is how I'd like them to treat me).
Interesting stuff in this article. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity The 2012 book Introduction to Behavioral Science in Medicine says that with exceptions, "Gender identity develops surprisingly rapidly in the early childhood years, and in the majority of instances appears to become at least partially irreversible by the age of 3 or 4".[11][12] The Endocrine Society has stated "Considerable scientific evidence has emerged demonstrating a durable biological element underlying gender identity. Individuals may make choices due to other factors in their lives, but there do not seem to be external forces that genuinely cause individuals to change gender identity."[13] Essentialists argue that gender identity is determined at birth by biological and genetic factors, while social constructivists argue that gender identity and the way it is expressed are socially constructed, instead determined by cultural and social influences. These positions are not mutually exclusive, as an innate gender identity can be expressed in different ways in different cultures.[14]
We’ve now moved on from comparing transgender people to people pretending to be cats to people pretending to be toasters. Gotta love the internet.
You have every right to your ill-considered opinion that being transgender is akin to thinking oneself to be a toaster. I’d just encourage you to have some epistemic humility when dealing personally with transgender people, if that should ever happen. https://www.endocrine.org/advocacy/position-statements/transgender-health BACKGROUND The medical consensus in the late 20th century was that transgender and gender incongruent individuals suffered a mental health disorder termed “gender identity disorder.” Gender identity was considered malleable and subject to external influences. Today, however, this attitude is no longer considered valid. Considerable scientific evidence has emerged demonstrating a durable biological element underlying gender identity.1, 2Individuals may make choices due to other factors in their lives, but there do not seem to be external forces that genuinely cause individuals to change gender identity. Although the specific mechanisms guiding the biological underpinnings of gender identity are not entirely understood, there is evolving consensus that being transgender is not a mental health disorder. Such evidence stems from scientific studies suggesting that: 1) attempts to change gender identity in intersex patients to match external genitalia or chromosomes are typically unsuccessful1, 2; 2) identical twins (who share the exact same genetic background) are more likely to both experience transgender identity as compared to fraternal (non-identical) twins3; 3) among individuals with female chromosomes (XX), rates of male gender identity are higher for those exposed to higher levels of androgens in utero relative to those without such exposure, and male (XY)-chromosome individuals with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome typically have female gender identity4; and 4) there are associations of certain brain scan or staining patterns with gender identity rather than external genitalia or chromosomes.1, 2
more fun with language. why do we need to redefine something that is readily understood, ie gender or sex, as this new concept "gender identity?"
Do you really claim to fully understand the biological underpinnings of sexual identity and orientation?
We are all social creatures. Ultimately, how others view us still matter despite having a "tougher skin". Language and words used to describe your personal experience also matter as people literally have different perspectives when existing words can't properly describe the experience either out of an inadequate availability or deliberate mistyping. There was a series of famous studies that looked into cultures that didn't have words for certain colors and whether those people then couldn't perceive those colors. Many of the verbs you listed spring behind a core debate about dignity. Is society affording trans folk enough dignity as things are? Should we even bother for a small, very hard to concisely categorize minority? Pronouns seem like a bare minimum for understanding even if I feel the language is incomplete, and I suspect many folks against it (while not claiming to be against trans) are worried about a slippery slope. It's interesting to note that the oldest shop for spiritual experiences, organized religion, have mostly scrubbed out the sexual outliers over time out of conformity or dogma. Was Adam a hermaphrodite? Making that a sacred trait would've have a profound social and spiritual impact, wouldn't it?
I want to take this opportunity to say how much I admire the way you've been addressing the bigotry on display here. I find myself unable to do it. Why? I would end up adding several members to my ignore list, already substantial, because of their bigotry. I find it very offensive. When it comes to those members posting on other topics in the GARM or Hangout, for example, I often enjoy what they write. Here, however? With this subject, one that they obviously have no real, personal knowledge of, not that understanding requires it, and a subject that clearly produces "fear of the unknown" in them? Where some of them produce the most ridiculous paragraphs describing how "offended" they are by someone actually disagreeing with them, or worse, how aghast they are to be accused of bigotry, when bigotry is the farthest thing from their mind. That they are not bigoted. The very idea! Yes, they are offended! Again, I admire your back and forth with them, your honesty. The truth in your posts on this topic. A very sincere thank you for that. If you hear faint footsteps, it's me walking away from this thread, as I have with the other one. I leave responding to their bigotry to you and those like you.
To be honest I have interacted with plenty of gender fluid or trans people. I never had to treat them any different or accommodate their needs. In every day interactions how often do you refer to the person you are talking to as he or she. How often do you need to make any comment about someones gender or sex.
Trans folks are some of the most marginalized in the world and I don’t hold any animosity towards them. I, writ large, feel empathy for them but obviously some can behave in ways I don’t agree with. I draw the line at hanging dong in women/girl locker rooms. I also don’t think M2F should compete in women sports. It sucks but there has to be a resolution to the issue and I think that’s the best option of those reasonably available.
Yes, I know. So, you are claiming to fully understand the biological underpinnings behind sex/gender identity (such as why a transgender person experiences acute gender dysphoria), while making no so claims regarding sexual orientation?
