I won't speak much on Trae as I haven't watched enough Hawks game to form a good opinion. I have watched enough though to say you are mistaken. To simplify Luka's game into "you stand around and wait to see if he's gonna pass to you or chuck a 40 footer", it's clear you don't watch a lot of his play. When Brunson was still here, he deferred to him a lot more than Trae does to Murray this year, for example. WIth Brunson now gone, Luka can now pass either to Dinwiddie, who isn't as good of creator as Brunson, or Wood, who has been playing from the bench until recent 7-8 games. He's in the same situation that Harden was before CP3 came to HOU. So would you say that pre-CP3 Harden was also a "player where you stand around and wait to see if he's gonna pass to you or chuck a 40 footer"? Because that's what he was and that's what Dallas needs from Luka right now until he gets better players around him. Luka has to put up 50 against Rockets and 60 against Knicks without Brunson and Barrett for Dallas to have a chance.
Damn, RR! Always trying to end any debate with a supposed "gotcha" moment or a nifty little stat, taken out of context, when you have nothing else to say. Harden going to Finals was the especially funny one. It seems like you forgot about Luka's performance against last year's mighty Suns, who were heavily favourites against Dallas and after 2-0 lead, faded like an autumn leaf...what did Harden do against Miami in those finals? What did he do against the Spurs or Durant-less GSW in the playoffs? Man, the difference between two of them in the playoffs is so big, it makes your "Harden in the finals?" quip so pathetic it's not even funny anymore.
To the first bolded part I ask: fair enough, so what exactly is Luka then if not a heliocentric top of the key dribble dribble iso player that more often than not takes ill advised shots with a low chance of going in and passes with almost no time for any of his teammates to get off a good look? We fawn over the times where the clock is right twice a day and he makes a miracle shot to tie or win a game and shrug when he misses them (usually). I've seen so many just hit the backboard or clank off the rim. To answer your second question: yes. The key difference between the two players is that Harden in his prime was better than Luka ever will be. He was just more athletic and could explode to the basket vs Luka who has to guile his way through the defense. Harden could do that too mind you. His passes were crisper and his moves were just overall more electric. Thats why Harden would have his teams with literally no one else on them at 50+ wins and the 4 seed or 3 seed. Luka struggles to keep his team at .500. He's just more of a chucker and if the argument is #whatotheroptionsdotheyhave....well they had a premier PG by his side and got drubbed by the aging Warriors in 4. I don't think another star is the answer. I genuinely don't believe Luka is a championship caliber player. I was saying before the season that Dallas WCF season was like the Hawks ECF season. Flukey. Prime Harden would have this same Dallas team flirting with the 1 seed right now.
Good stuff. Most of it is invalid IMO, but it makes up for a good debate. You know Luka's teammates get the best looks from 3 point in the entire NBA, right? There's more than a couple stats that shows that and if you ask nicely, I will surely get them, because it's a bit late for me to do that now. "The key difference between the two players is that Harden in his prime was better than Luka ever will be." That's is a VERY bold statement about a guy who puts up 60 point triple doubles at age 23, the age when Harden averaged 26/5/6. Luka passed those stats in his second NBA season. This reminds me of Suns fans claiming Ayton will be better than Luka in a few years after their first season. I'm not saying Luka will ever be better than prime Harden in regular season. Maybe he will, maybe he won't. Lots of people bet against Luka though and they lost every time so far. It's funny how you use (wrong) adjectives to hammer down your point. Brunson is a "premier" PG all of a sudden? Warriors are "aging"? The same ones who won the ring against Boston in the finals? What means "premier" for you? Top 5 PG I guess? I can name 7-9 better ones off the top of my head right now - Luka, Ja, Irving, SGA, Curry, Jrue Holiday, Garland, Haliburton, Lillard, Murray and probably even Fox and Young. Still think Brunson's a "premier PG"? He's just as good as a prime Eric Gordon, which Harden had beside him. Luka never had a center like Howard or later Capella. Let's not bring up CP3 at all. Luka is just more of a chucker? Are we really comparing him to Harden who regularly went for 2-13 on threes? He's had 10+ 3PA in each of his last three seasons and not once went over 37% on them. Luka's 3PT% is around 35%, but he at least launches less than 9 per match. And he's more efficient under the basket this year than Harden ever was. And if we want to talk about competition: That was the GSW era when nobody from Western Conference but Houston dared to construct a team that could beat them (that's what I liked about Morey). Clippers always folded in the playoffs, Portland didn't know what defense was, Westbrook's playoff shortcomings were legendary, Utah didn't know how to defend pick and roll or 5-out offense and Spurs were old, save for Kawhi. Look at western conference now: Suns were a joke then, they are a powerhouse now. Memphis is terrific. Denver has 2 time MVP. Clippers one of the deepest teams in the league and 21-15 even with PG and Kawhi missing so much time. Pelicans first in the league. Even the teams that want to tank (Utah, OKC) are too good for that and beat good teams regularly. The parity is much stronger now that it was before. Did Harden had to have 50 just to give his team a chance against one of worst teams of the league? This happened to Dallas against Houston. Btw, they lost against Houston without Luka. Save for first Harden's HOU team with Parsons, Link and Asik, he never had a team that sucked as much as Dallas is right now. As far as style of play, beauty is in eye of the beholder. As much as I liked Harden, and still do, his foul baiting with arm hooks, extended arms to show the ball and head tilts weren't very pretty to look at. Got the same feeling when I'm looking at Luka whining all the f-ing time, although he got a bit better at that this year. I enjoy watching them both, but Luka a bit more because I feel he has a deeper bag of tricks than Harden. And it's fun to watch him being so slow and still get around any defender he likes.
You are correct the 2015 rockets were one of the least talented teams outside of harden and injured dwight to make the wcf. Like most of that roster wasn’t even in the nba the following year. We were starting Jason terry and Pablo prigioni at pg and they had to guard young curry. While the warriors could wear down harden with iggy, draymond, klay and also had rim protecting big in bogut I feel like Luka and harden fans should not hate each other. Luka clearly watched harden and learned a bit of his trickery and tactics from him. A lot of young up and coming players imitate harden https://www.silverscreenandroll.com...obili-film-tricks-offense-free-throw-shooting
That 2015 Rockets team was really bad. They finished 8th for the season. I remember having high hopes for D-Mo. Too bad he didn't pan out. Luka had similar problems: starting rotation was filled by bench players and often injured Porzingis who was a glorified 3&D player next to Luka because he couldn't dribble to save his life and couldn't post 6'5 guys. Best players have a lot of imitators: Curry, Harden, LeBron etc. The only thing that annoys me on this board is people who are annoyed by Harden critics, saying they don't watch enough games to have an informed opinion, and then do the same to Luka (and most of other stars, TBH). I guess it's no different then other message boards, although I'd say PHX fans are way more toxic still. Their complete disintegration at the hands of Luka and the Mavs last playoffs was a joy to watch.
32 games with 30+ averaging 41.1 ppg over the stretch. Went 21-11 over the stretch. Paul out 23 of those 32. Capela out 15 of the 32.
Doncic’s help: Porzingis, Brunson Harden’s help: KD, Westbrook, Dwight, CP3, Irving, Embiid Just saying.
And he has to score 50+ just to get by the likes of Spurs, injured Knicks, injured Lakers and Houston. Somewhere in this thread it has been said Harden had an awful team while on his 30+ points run; Luka might be on a worse team than that.
The Warriors who won last year are the weakest iteration of the Warriors by FAR. Look at how crap they looked even with Steph this year. The West was still very good. Portland still doesnt know what defense is. Clippers got better but they were good, they actually two games off of the KD Warriors. What? Westbrook was still in his prime when he faced the Rockets. That Spurs team also had 4 HOF and won like 60 plus games. Utah was also still a defensive force with Mitchell and Gobert. Also its funny you talk about Luka's supporting cast, considering for awhile they had a better net rating with him off the court. Like even in the bubble playoffs. And they even beat Utah like 2 games without Luka with Jalen Brunson going off. Spurs 2016>Suns. Memphis is really good you are right but Luka's never actually played them in a series. Rockets would routinely kick Denver's butt and I know Jokic is better but the Rockets with prime Harden and Capela would run laps around them. They would duck us in the playoffs. Clippers are very good. NO is also very good. But none of those teams are even close to the KD Warriors, even the 2016 Spurs I would say are better than most if not all of them. Yes LMAO what, that happend many times Okay? What is your point. The 2014-2015 Rockets werent that more talented than the Mavs last year if at all actually. I dont even know what you are talking about. Luka has shooters and Wood right now along with Spencer DinWiddie, the Rockets without Cp3 last year were worse than that.
