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Forcing children to wear a mask is child abuse. The Left failed children.

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by AroundTheWorld, Jan 31, 2022.

  1. Ubiquitin

    Ubiquitin Member
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    My guess is he does not have kids.
     
  2. AroundTheWorld

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    No, some idiots are still doing this. I am only reporting it.

    Your guess is incorrect.
     
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  3. krosfyah

    krosfyah Member

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    But you haven't reported on the whole basis of your argument, the "abuse" part. Where is the abuse?
     
  4. Ubiquitin

    Ubiquitin Member
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    50:50 chance.
    Your Florida boys will never be subjected to this tyranny of masking.
     
  5. Ubiquitin

    Ubiquitin Member
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    #SALTLife
     
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  6. AroundTheWorld

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    42 pages. So you are in favour of masking children forever?

    Here is some more if you actually care to read it.

    https://www.johnlocke.org/end-the-forced-masking-of-children-in-schools/

    End the Forced Masking of Children in Schools

    Forced mask-wearing in schools has become one of the signature shames of our era. It is a monstrous act of adult cowardice, indifference to parents’ concerns, and dereliction of duty to look after the full welfare of the children placed in their care.

    Two years in, and the research literature hasn’t changed: face masks are ineffective against airborne viruses. The Brownstone Institute has produced a compilation of 167 comparative studies and articles attesting to the harm and ineffectiveness of compulsory masking. In 2020 I showed, one by one, how Gov. Roy Cooper’s own cited research (22 studies plus one added in a later executive order) failed to make the case for his emergency orders to force face masks on people. Not surprisingly, for each of the 12 times he re-upped and even strengthened his face mask order, not once were case numbers lower than the day before he leveled the original order on people.

    But sometimes the worst tyrants can be found among those given little fiefdoms of authority over people who cannot fight back, and they can include school boards making decisions affecting small children. Most school boards in North Carolina, to our great shame and to schoolchildren’s manifold harms, still continue to require compulsory masking against students. The count currently is 85 out of 115 school boards.

    Perhaps finally the horrid politics of Covid is thawing toward schoolchildren. Consider that just within the past two days, several well-reputed liberal establishment media outlets have allowed themselves to publish articles arguing to free children’s faces:

    The New York Times, Jan. 28:
    Elissa Perkins, the director of infectious disease management in the emergency department of the Boston Medical Center, told me she spent most of 2020 “imploring everybody I could in every forum that I could to mask.” In the beginning, she said, this was to flatten the curve, and later to protect the vulnerable. But masking, she said, “was intended to be a short-term intervention,” and she believes we haven’t talked enough about the drawbacks of mandating them for kids long-term.

    “If we accept that we don’t want masks to be required in our schools forever, we have to decide when is the right time to remove them,” she said. “And that’s a conversation that we’re not really having.” …

    The debate about masks in schools can quickly turn vicious because it pits legitimate interests against one another. Many people who are immunocompromised, or live with those who are, understandably fear that getting rid of mandates will make them more vulnerable. But keeping kids in masks month after month also inflicts harm, even if it’s not always easy to measure.

    “I think it would be naïve to not acknowledge that there are downsides of masks,” said Perkins. “I know some of that data is harder to come by because those outcomes are not as discrete as Covid or not-Covid. But from speaking with pediatricians, from speaking with learning specialists, and also from speaking with parents of younger children especially, there are significant issues related to language acquisition, pronunciation, things like that. And there are very clear social and emotional side effects in the older kids.” …

    There’s some question about how well masks in school really work; many studies are confounded, since communities with school mask mandates tend to adopt other Covid mitigation measures as well. Much of The Atlantic’s “The Case Against Masks at School” is devoted to reviewing studies either conducted or cited by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, and it concludes that the “overall takeaway from these studies — that schools with mask mandates have lower Covid-19 transmission rates than schools without mask mandates — is not justified by the data that have been gathered.”

    NPR, Jan. 28:
    Good masks are hard to find …

    Danny Benjamin is a pediatrician with Duke University and the ABC Science Collaborative, which has long advised school districts that masking can be highly effective against COVID spread. “If you’re in a school district that masks, the risk of COVID is much less at school than it is outside of school, because school is one of the few places where people actually enforce mitigation measures.”

    But in his view, while respirators offer superior protection, mandating them for children is impractical: Some kids find them uncomfortable, they may not fit small faces well and they need to be replaced often. For the nation’s 55 million schoolchildren, Benjamin says, “now we’re talking about 100 million masks that you’re mandating each week. And that’s kind of the best-case scenario, where you reuse most of them, no child ever loses their mask and no child ever soils their mask, which, I don’t know what planet that is.”

    It’s hard for children to wear masks properly

    Teachers and parents often report that proper mask-wearing is difficult and requires constant reinforcement by teachers. That’s especially true for young children and those with special needs. …

    Masks can interfere with young children’s brain development

    Numerous scientific papers have established that it can be harder to hear and understand speech and identify facial expressions and emotions when people are wearing masks. (Some of these studies also suggest workarounds, which many practitioners are using).

    These are critical developmental tasks, particularly for children in the first three years of life.

    The United States is an outlier in recommending masks from the age of 2 years old. The World Health Organization does not recommend masks for children under age 5, while the European equivalent of the CDC doesn’t recommend them for children under age 12. …

    Manfred Spitzer is a psychiatrist and a cognitive neuroscientist in Germany. … “Kids need to train up their face recognition,” he says, and they need to see full faces to learn to identify emotions as well as to learn language. “Babies were never designed just to see the upper half of the face and to infer the lower half; even adults have a hard time doing this.”

    Masks can make it harder to hear and understand speech …

    Diane Paul is with the American Speech-Language-Hearing Association, the national professional association representing speech therapists. She says referrals of children to speech therapy have increased since the pandemic began. …

    Donna Smiley is an audiologist — a hearing-impairment specialist — also with ASHA. “We all use visual input to help understand the message,” she says — watching a speaker’s lips and mouth, which are covered by masks. “By putting on a mask, you’re also making the teacher’s voice less loud.” …

    Masks can inhibit social interactions

    For school-age children, Spitzer, the psychiatrist, is most concerned that masking interferes with nonverbal communication and emotional bonding.

    Gonzalez says her students who are on the autism spectrum withdraw behind masks. “They have almost started adopting the masks as their face. It’s part of their identity, it’s their security blanket. I almost have to be like, ‘Hey, you are allowed to take it off right now.’ Like, say, if they’re going to run the lap at P.E. or going into lunch to sit down — they want to eat a bite, put it back on, eat a bite, put it back on.” …

    Balancing children’s needs and pandemic safety…

    On Jan. 25, a group of physicians and scientists announced a national campaign to “restore normalcy” in children’s lives by putting them first in line for the lifting of restrictions, including mask mandates, once the omicron wave has subsided.

    Dr. Jeanne Noble, who directs COVID-19 response for the UCSF Emergency Department at the University of California, San Francisco, is part of the coalition. “Kids don’t need to be masked. Full stop. They have minuscule risk of serious illness or death from COVID,” she says. She and colleagues are suggesting that especially vulnerable children continue to mask while other vaccinated children can safely go without.

    (continued...)


     
  7. AroundTheWorld

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    (...rest of article)

    San Francisco Chronicle, Jan. 27:
    Meanwhile, kids are bearing the brunt of restrictions: all-day masking and “punitive mask culture,” as one of the many physicians speaking out recently put it; disruption to their social and emotional learning, to literacy and speech, and worrisome impacts on their mental health. My 8-year-old son brought home a self-portrait this week — it had no nose or mouth.

    Should little humans see each other’s faces and see their teachers’ faces? If our answer is “yes, but not until everyone is safe,” we need to put some numbers behind that rhetoric. In every recent winter except the last, between 200 and 1,200 kids in the U.S. died of the flu, the physicians point out. During the entire pandemic, some 900 deaths of children are attributed to COVID. Any death of a young person is achingly tragic. But when will all children be “safe”? …

    Parents are legitimately asking what the benefits are — at this stage — for policies like masking and whether they outweigh the harms. We have to engage with the science showing that the masks we’ve been donning for two years don’t work all that well. The most rigorous study in adults found that surgical masks reduced infection by about 10 percent — in adults. And that was before omicron. Dr. Leana Wen called cloth masks “facial decoration.” There are no approved N95 respirators for kids and no data to justify knockoff varieties. We have to ask: How have so many European countries managed to keep kids in school and barefaced and their death rates lower than ours?

    In evidence-based medicine, the burden of proof is on the intervention, not the norm. The norm is seeing human faces. The intervention is endless masking. …

    The goal of “ending COVID” was once laudable, but at this point it’s driven by a mixture of naivete, hubris and entitlement. We can all be furious and devastated by the death and illness this virus is still causing, but we can’t misread people’s desire for normal as indicating callous disregard for human life. One of the first rules of parenting is to never take out your own anger on your children. That’s what turns us into monsters.

    The Atlantic, Jan. 26:
    Many public-health experts maintain that masks worn correctly are essential to reducing the spread of COVID-19. However, there’s reason to doubt that kids can pull off mask-wearing “correctly.” We reviewed a variety of studies—some conducted by the CDC itself, some cited by the CDC as evidence of masking effectiveness in a school setting, and others touted by media to the same end—to try to find evidence that would justify the CDC’s no-end-in-sight mask guidance for the very-low-risk pediatric population, particularly post-vaccination. We came up empty-handed. …

    Despite how widespread all-day masking of children in school is, the short-term and long-term consequences of this practice are not well understood, in part because no one has successfully collected large-scale systematic data and few researchers have tried. Mental and social-emotional outcomes are hard to observe and measure, and can take years to manifest. Initial data, however, are not reassuring. Recent prospective studies from Greece and Italy found evidence that masking is a barrier to speech recognition, hearing, and communication, and that masks impede children’s ability to decode facial expressions, dampening children’s perceived trustworthiness of faces. Research has also suggested that hearing-impaired children have difficulty discerning individual sounds; opaque masks, of course, prevent lip-reading. Some teachers, parents, and speech pathologists have reported that masks can make learning difficult for some of America’s most vulnerable children, including those with cognitive delays, speech and hearing issues, and autism. Masks may also hinder language and speech development—especially important for students who do not speak English at home. Masks may impede emotion recognition, even in adults, but particularly in children. This fall, when children were asked, many said that prolonged mask wearing is uncomfortable and that they dislike it.

    This last reason is important in considering a pivot to requiring children to wear N95 or KN95 masks, which are thought to be more effective at preventing the spread of Omicron. A few school districts, in response to the growing awareness of the ineffectiveness of cloth and surgical masks, have decided to escalate rather than scale back masking by requiring these types of medical-grade masks, which are significantly less comfortable to wear and can hinder communication more than other types of masks.

    As with our existing school-mask policies, no real-world data indicate that these masks decrease transmission in school settings—data that matter greatly, as these masks require a very tight fit to function effectively, and that may not be possible for many kids. N95s are not approved or sized for children, proper fit is hard to achieve even with adults, and a June 2020 study shows they have very high failure rates when taken on and off or worn for multiple hours. Though KN95s, the manufactured-in-China equivalent, are available in kids’ sizes, they also require a very tight seal to function properly, which is unrealistic for schoolchildren to maintain for multiple hours a day. Early-pandemic recommendations to mask at school, soon followed by mandates, were laid down in the absence of data. We should not repeat this mistake with a new generation of masks. …

    Masking is the last and most stubborn layer, possibly because its drawbacks are more subtle and not yet well documented. We understand that many public-health professionals and parents may want to keep that layer in place, perhaps because they think the possible drawbacks to masking are even less well quantified than the possible benefits. They may point to the low vaccination rate among children to argue against any loosening of mitigation measures, even if they cannot directly connect those measures to reduced transmission. They may also point to the Omicron surge increasing children’s hospitalizations. But hospitalizations have risen among all age groups, and, even at the country’s peak, remained extremely low among children, on par with pediatric flu hospitalizations during a typical season.

    Imposing on millions of children an intervention that provides little discernible benefit, on the grounds that we have not yet gathered solid evidence of its negative effects, violates the most basic tenet of medicine: First, do no harm. The foundation of medical and public-health interventions should be that they work, not that we have insufficient evidence to say whether they are harmful. Continued mandatory masking of children in schools, especially now that most schoolchildren are eligible for vaccination, fails this test.
     
  8. krosfyah

    krosfyah Member

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    I stopped reading after the second sentence as this is clearly an opinion piece not based in science ...as you seem to represent this subject as.

    Where are the facts that having children wear a mask is abuse?
     
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  9. AroundTheWorld

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  10. No Worries

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    More like SCW Snowflake mental abuse. amirite?
     
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  11. DonnyMost

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    Armchair opinion here, but it feels almost like we got this completely backwards.

    We masked kids during COVID, which had dubious consequences....

    And we're lifting the mandate just in time for the most historic surge in pediatric respiratory illnesses ever (RSV, Flu, etc).

    So we masked kids when it was of no benefit to them, and now we're taking them off whenever the risks are hitting historic highs.
     
  12. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Member
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    it's making a normative argument. Of course it's an opinion piece. Science alone cannot tell us WHAT to do and WHY to do it
     
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  13. krosfyah

    krosfyah Member

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    Again, the article that you quoted started off by calling people 'monsters', which clearly illustrates the position is biased, not factual.

    Had you quoted the subsequent article, which you now only now did, perhaps I'd have looked closer.

    That said, the article you cited indicates it is a 70-minute read. Ain't nobody got time for that. I looked through the first 25 studies and not one of them suggests "abuse".

    So once again, since it is YOU that is trying to convince everybody else, where is the evidence that masking children causes harm. That is the whole premise of your thread yet you don't cite specific factual evidence.




    btw, let's pump the brakes on the personal attacks. The clearest signal that you are losing an argument is by attacking the messenger. I'm simply asking you to support the whole basis of your 42-page thread that you are keeping alive so clearly you feel some kind of way about it.
     
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  14. AroundTheWorld

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    If you say you don't want to read anything, but you already have your mind made up, then trying to educate you is clearly a lost cause.

    My point is simple:

    Children should not be forced to wear masks.

    That's my opinion, and I have cited plenty of sources to back it up. Since there isn't "the science", you can surely find sources which say that masks are great.
     
    #834 AroundTheWorld, Dec 12, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2022
  15. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Member

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    I think he's claiming that you are very confident in your claims which implies you should have read a 70 minute article you linked and at least quote the relevant and key points and just express the arguments in your own words.

    He's asking you to analyze the paper and express what you got out of it in your own words.
     
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  16. krosfyah

    krosfyah Member

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    I read some of what you provided but I'm not spending > hour reading random internet sites that you likely spent 2 minutes searching for.

    If you want to convince us something, then convince us ...not throw spaghetti on the wall.. Otherwise, what is the point of this thread?

    So for the fourth time, specifically, how is it "child abuse" to have kids wear a mask? This is your thread. Earlier you said you were presenting facts and science but now you say it's just an opinion. Accusing people of "child abuse" is a pretty strong opinion to make if there are no facts.

    My mind is NOT made up on the matter but don't cite an article from somebody calling other people "monsters" as that person's mind is clearly biased.
     
    #836 krosfyah, Dec 12, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2022
  17. ROCKSS

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    I guess you can find your answers to fit your narrative if you look hard enough but as soon as I read that the OP of this article heralded the likes of Scott Atlas who was the czar under trump for a few months and simply parroted what the trump machine said and has no background in this type of disease I become skeptical. I looked at a dozen of these studies, some going back to 2005 (which I question from a Covid Perspective) and none were done in the US. With that said, parents should do what they feel is right for their child. When it comes to a public mandate, caution is the best medicine, I think we will learn facts from Covid in 10-12 years that make us all go WTF, I don't assume to know any more than anyone else but when I look for solutions, I would dig a bit deeper then these 167 "studies"........but that's the point, you're not trying to make an educated decision, you're trying to make your point based on the fact that you do not trust Fauci or reputable scientists.........conspiracy, conspiracy, conspiracy

    Dr. Scott Atlas, a "doctor" with zero experience in dealing with virus or infections, resigned on Monday after overseeing the deaths of over 260,000 Americans.
    ust a reminder: Atlas pushed for full reopening, balked at lockdowns and came out as anti-mask. So what did he think worked? Herd Stupidity. You know, the idea of just letting everyone get exposed and infected and allowing the sacrifice of large percentages of our population.

    This anti-science plan was actually panned by Atlas' own medical school! Stanford, Atlas' alma mater, actually published a letter on September calling out Atlas' "falsehoods and misrepresentations" regarding COVID and his statements that are contrary to all scientific evidence on how to prevent and treat the highly contagious and deadly virus.

    Dr. Atlas, may your career as a Doctor of Death forever haunt you and may the souls of the 268,000 people that have died come to you late at night, screaming out, gasping for breath and never giving you a minute of peace.

    https://crooksandliars.com/2020/11/scott-atlas-head-herd-stupidity-white

     
  18. AroundTheWorld

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    Did you read any of the thread?

    I appreciate you saying your mind is not made up, but it feels a bit like one of these situations where someone comes in and says "didn't read lol" but then proceeds to wanting to make others work to explain things again which have already been talked about.

    And you came in with an attitude of "you are still doing this" which didn't indicate that your mind is not made up.

    As to "child abuse", this may be an exaggerated term, but the point should be clear - it is not good for children, on balance, to continue to be subject to mask mandates.

    @ROCKSS - indeed, I do not trust Fauci. I did, early in the pandemic. I was also pro-lockdown early in the pandemic. I did wear masks. And I am triple-vaccinated (MRNA).

    I'm not a conspiracy theorist. But after observing things for the last years and doing some more research on Fauci, I do not see why I should trust him very much. I am aware that others will see this differently (including some mutual professional contacts between Dr. Fauci and myself, who praise him very much). To me, he looks more like a "politician scientist" who had a lot of output and got things right, but also got things wrong many times.

    What is very dubious to me is his role in funding gain-of-function research and then later his role in discrediting scientists who disagreed with him.
     
    #838 AroundTheWorld, Dec 12, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2022
  19. krosfyah

    krosfyah Member

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    Yes, I read the first 5 and last 5 pages or so on Page 39 (below), you suggest that folks are not following the science. So all that I'm asking you is where is the science and data regarding "child abuse" as it pertains to masking children?

     
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  20. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Member

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    Nothing you type here requires reading and can be spit out by someone who reads meme level content every day.

    Please actually discuss the relevant parts of the 10,000 word articles you spam that make you conclude the things you conclude. It's that simple. You don't trust Fuaci. Why?

    Saying the term "gain of function" means nothing. Explain what it is and why Fauci is bad.

    Explain WHY you hold your positions. We already knew every position you regurgitated in the comment I replied to here.
     

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