Remove the blindfold for the postseason 1000+ This conversation is not strictly regular season Recognize one of the greatest playoff players ever
MLB rules specify that post season stats do not count toward career numbers. Now clearly his post season success is helping him get into the hall of fame. But all the stats compared between he and other players for HOF consideration will be regular season. Then his playoff resume will be used to bump his chances. As a top of the order hitter without even 200 HR, 1000 runs scored is minimum that would likely end any consideration. Bernie Williams has a career OPS of 850 with over 50 extra base hits, 80 runs and 80 RBI in 121 playoff games (all much better than Altuve so far) and he isn't even sniffing the HOF. Oh, and he has over 1250 RBI and 1350 runs scored.
The same Bernie Williams whose top MVP finish (reg season) was 7th ?? Altuve has had the more dominant career He could retire today and still be deemed better
So now you are flipping back to regular season numbers? The bottom line is that a player must meet certain regular season minimums to be considered for the HOF. Altuve is on pace but simply not there yet.
There is no flip. The thread is two years older than your start date I've been talking regular season + playoffs the entire time Every post of mine that you've quoted has been regular season + playoffs Thanks for your explanation of regular season stats being separate from postseason. I finally know now
There is a very messy trail of middle infielders who looked Hall of Fame bound through their 20s and then fell off a cliff after 30. Altuve is not, by JAWS, ready for Cooperstown - though, obviously, if he keeps inching closer, that postseason career is going to help bridge any gaps. He's also going to have to inevitably overcome the cheating scandal. Seems like that's in progress, as more media seems to be either forgiving or reconciling - but it's a unique obstacle and likely means his resume has to be uber-elite. Also, as great as he's been, he trails Bagwell by ~30+ bWAR. It's going to be very difficult for him to generate ~70% of his bWAR from his first 12 years over his final.... 7-10 years to catch Bagwell. But! If he gets into the 60s.... again, that's where postseason success can start to narrow the gap. At this point, I'm very comfortable, personally, putting him #2, ahead of Biggio. But still behind Bagwell.
Crazy as it may seem, but I still got Biggio ahead of Altuve on the all-time astros list. Obviously Biggio has him on the career numbers; he played longer. But even by WAR/7 (cumulative WAR of the 7 best career seasons), Biggio is slightly better. Tuve obviously has the MVP award and a few WS championships under his belt; however they surprisingly have the same number of top 5 MVP votes. If Tuve gets the big round numbers (e.g. 3k hits) he obviously moves ahead of Biggio. Lol this was just a nice stroll down memory lane of how freaking good Biggio was in his day.
I think Altuve only needs 4 more good (4+ fwar) seasons to cement himself as the best Astro ever. He doesn’t need Biggio’s longevity because he has multiple rings.
That's pretty much where I am. As players Biggio and him were very close, a lot closer than some people realize (prime Biggio was an MVP level player) but because they are so close Altuve's glittering postseason resume gives him the edge. Altuve and Bagwell are not close as regular season players. A grand total of 11 bad games (against mostly cy young winners) in the late 90's doesn't close a gulf that wide.
I apologize for any insult. No offense meant. My stance is that when I pointed out Altuve does not have the regular season counting numbers then playoff stats were added to make this case. When I pointed out a player with superior playoff numbers then that players lack of regular season performance was pointed out to diminish my point. Can't have it both ways.
Altuve just completed an 11/58 postseason (.190). He did not hit a home run or drive in a single run. He was awful. Now, imagine that was his *only* postseason appearance... It took Bagwell FIVE DIFFERENT TRIPS to the postseason to accumulate 58 playoff ABs. Does anybody who watched Jeff Bagwell hit for 15 years think if you gave him 58 ABs in *one* postseason, that he wouldn't put up numbers? In 2004, when the Astros finally won a series, he totaled 49 ABs: .285/.375/.490/.865. Yeah, part of it is his fault, but prior to that, he totaled 12, 14, 13 and 7 ABs in his first four playoff series - all in four different years. Oh, and 30 of his first 60 plate appearances were against Maddux, Smoltz or Glavine, all three rightly enshrined in the Hall of Fame. If Altuve gets into the stratosphere of Bagwell's regular season #s, his postseason performance can become a difference-maker. But he isn't close to Bagwell's stratosphere, and to let 129 PAs lessen Bagwell's enormous, historic offensive output is just plain silly.
Fantasy Baseball Bagwell is the best, Biggio second But in the real game, Altuve is the GOAT and it isn’t close. What he has done in the playoffs dwarfs either of them.
i haven’t read this whole thread, but wanted to respond to the issue regarding the postseason. Bagwell was incredible and my favorite Astro for a long long time. You have a good point about Bagwells postseason numbers and the slew of CY young/HOF types he had to face. That said, if Bagwell were given as many postseason ABs as Altuve, it is hard to believe that he would have done this well because…. Almost nobody has. Altuve’s volume and rate of production under the brightest lights has been incredible. And while I am allowing a small sample to have a disproportionately high impact on my opinion, Altuves signature moments are iconic. Great players would do well to have one or two, Altuves are almost too many to count.
Postseason is small sample size. Getting hot at the right time or slumping at the wrong time can totally throw everything out of whack. Now, if there is reason to think someone is a choker under pressure (like they not only fail in the postseason, but they are terrible with RISP, always do worse on nationally televised games, etc.) maybe that would be something to consider. If all there is to go on is someone didn't hit well in 10 games, then it is probably just random variance that hit at a bad time.
It will be interesting to see where Altuve finishes in MVP this season He won't win but Top 5 is possible. He was third in OPS and 13th in WAR (two teammates finishing ahead) The likely locks are Judge, Alverez, Trout, and Ohtani Stros had 5 players in the top 15
