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[Official] Astros Off Season

Discussion in 'Houston Astros' started by Castor27, Nov 7, 2022.

  1. raining threes

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    Didn't they say the same thing about Chaz.
     
  2. Nook

    Nook Member

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    I didn't know that the Rays were shopping Diaz, but he would fit what the Astros would like as a player. He doesn't have a lot of homers, but he does put the ball in play, walks as often as he strikes out and has the upside to hit over .300
     
  3. raining threes

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    I wonder why people struggle to understand this?
     
  4. AKdaDawg

    AKdaDawg Member

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    Snow where?!?!
     
  5. Nook

    Nook Member

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    Yeah, from what I have been told, this wasn't something that happened over night. This was a situation where the owner and GM did not see eye to eye on philosophy. Crane had money to spend and wanted to spend it to improve the team. Click wanted to wait for the perfect deal to spend the money. Click did not want Crane heavily involved in decisions and wanted more autonomy. Crane wanted a GM more like Luhnow, who included him in the day to day workings of the organization until Luhnow proved he knew what he was doing. Oddly, if you believe what I was told, Click also did not get along well with some of the other people in the organization and Crane had people coming to him and complaining and Crane did not like the dysfunction.

    Over time it got worse. There were deals that Crane wanted that would have backfired, but there were also deals that likely would have really helped the team.

    Everyone assumed that winning the World Series would get Click a long term deal because of team success, but in the eyes of Crane it validated the decisions that Crane stepped in and stopped being right, (Pena, Maldonado, Gurriel, retaining Tommy Kawamura to do advanced scouting of teams) and highlighted that Crane didn't trust Click to be the final authority on baseball matters.
     
  6. Nook

    Nook Member

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    I don't think we will see all of the league immediately go to a 6-man rotation if the Astros do. I think that there are some teams that can do it now if they want (Dodgers and Braves), but it is something that would take a while for minor league systems, etc. to adjust to before we see it more widespread.
     
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  7. Pipedream

    Pipedream Member

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    As a fan, can't wait to see the other "big moves" coming down the pipe this offseason, as the Montero deal feels like the tip of the iceberg. I just hope it isn't at the expense at maintaining and building the farm. Its been an absolute pleasure watching homegrown talent step right in to positions of need and provide all-star production. This kind of setup and organization doesn't come along too often and never in Astro baseball.

    C: Haven't heard too much about Mike Zunino as an option. Had a huge power year and was an All-Star in 2021. Could make for a good platoon with Maldy.

    1B: Any thoughts to signing Yuli and Brandon Belt to short-term, very team-friendly contracts for a lefty-righty platoon? Belt fits the Astro mold of high-OBP, lots of postseason (especially WS) experience and has good power to boot. Keeping Gurriel for clubhouse chemistry is another plus. Belt's health is a concern of course.

    CF: Nimmo would be a fantastic get
     
  8. rockbox

    rockbox Around before clutchcity.com

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    Wait. Click didn't believe in Pena? I thought Pena was a consensus across the organization.
     
  9. Snake Diggit

    Snake Diggit Member

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    It is a lot easier to go from 7 to 6 and 6 to 5 than to go the other way. Starting a season with only 5 good SP is asking for trouble whereas starting with 6 or 7 just means you might have a guy pitching in a role he is overqualified for (but likely only until an injury opens up a spot). There’s double benefit; not only does a 6 man rotation help prevent injuries and increase effectiveness by allowing more workload management flexibility, it also provides insurance when/if injuries to happen.
     
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  10. Nook

    Nook Member

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    Context really matters in all of this.

    Imagine you own a major league team and when you purchase it, people question whether you are qualified to own the team. Second, you are told you have to change leagues and in general the team you purchase is mediocre at the gate, bad on the field and largely forgettable in the minor leagues.

    As the new owner you spend a lot of time researching everyone in decision making capacities in the league. You meet with an interview a tremendous number of people. You decide that you will be innovative in an attempt to improve your teams long term fortunes. You end up hiring someone with ZERO background as a player, and someone with a business background outside of a few years with the Cardinals. You make the hire and a lot of the media and even baseball circles laugh at the hire of Luhnow because he doesn't fit the cookie cutter idea of what a baseball man is.

    You have lots of investors that want money, you have issues with the cable provider and it looks like the previous owner got out at the right time. You tell your GM the idea is to be visionary, and hire the best people, regardless of age or background. You and your GM continue to lose, no one is going to games.

    You ultimately develop a great work relationship with your GM and become a force, fans show up and your team is a potential dynasty. Your team gets caught cheating, doing the same thing that every other good team in the AL was doing, but an example is made out of you. You are told by the Commish of baseball that you have to fire your GM immediately and your manager and that MLB, through their media will minimize the scandal and life will go on.

    You fire your GM and coach, but the scandal doesn't go away and you and your team is vilified by the media. You are basically given a list of people to hire as your next GM and manager.

    You hire James Click as your GM, and it is almost an arranged marriage. Your new GM doesn't really care too much how you did stuff before and has no real appreciation of what you built. Your new GM doesn't really get along with a number of people already in the front office. He fires people that you like, for example Kevin Goldstein. Your new GM also brings in a new assistant GM that always sides with the GM.

    Over time you start having your manager and GM disagree with each other. You can at least talk and relate to your manager and guys Pete Putilla in the front office, but Click and his assistant GM somewhat exclude you from some discussions and push for more control over the organization you feel you built.

    You, as the owner are paying all your investors well, and the team is very good but comes up just short in the post season. You have the finances to add players to put you over the hump, but every time your GM argues not to do it, and you watch your team go deep in the playoffs but lose.

    Eventually the rift between the manager/front office with your GM/Assistant GM that it becomes a real issue. Your GM and manager have arguments on how to run the club. You notice that your GM is wrong on a number of points (in your opinion) and you lose confidence in him knowing more than the other people in the front office, and the coaches.

    So you offer him a one year deal, and he goes to the meetings and bad mouths you.

    Would you want this person as your GM?

    I'm not saying this portrayal is fair to Click, because it isn't, but this is likely how it looks to Crane and those in the front office that had issues with Click.

    Click wasn't fired of saying he wanted Meyers in centerfield.
     
  11. Nook

    Nook Member

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    This is true and Marte will have made about 70 million dollars more than Meyers over the same 4-year interval. I don't think that the decision to pass on Marte and go with Meyers was inherently bad. It turned out to not look so good in 2022, but we don't know what the next three years hold though.

    Having said that, Marte didn't keep Click from getting a long-term extension, it was one piece in a lot of pieces that led to that decision by Crane.

    In hindsight, the Astros would likely have been smart to have signed Marte because the cost of quality centerfielders has been extremely high. The Orioles with Mullins and Pirates with Reynolds want a huge return for a couple of guys that arguably are not better overall than Marte. I am sure that Crane likely was not happy about that fact and held it against Click.
     
  12. Joe Joe

    Joe Joe Go Stros!
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    Based on how things turned out, Crane had to rescind one-year contract offer and end Click's at will status. That said, the one-year offer was not meant to be accepted. Between Dusty and Click, I'd much rather have Click.
     
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  13. the shark

    the shark Member

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    Well said Nook.
     
  14. H-Town Info

    H-Town Info Member

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    He's like the Michael Brantley as a corner IF. Good OBP, hits a lot of doubles, doesn't strikeout a lot, and makes contact.

    Would be ideal hitter in the 6 or 7 hole.
     
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  15. Nook

    Nook Member

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    Click wanted to add a veteran and work Pena in slower than the rest of the front office and coaching staff wanted to, and Click also did not want Pena hitting second, and he and Baker fought over it. Ultimately, Crane sided with Baker and Pena won the ALCS and WS MVP awards... which didn't make Click look so good.

    I don't think either belief by Click was not reasonable. I saw a lot of Pena in the minors and it was pretty clear to me that he was ready, and while he would struggle to get on base, his glove would make up for it. However, I can understand Click wanting someone that is a veteran.

    As far as hitting second, a lot of baseball people would say that Pena should be down in the line-up, whether it was lucky timing or not, that position backfired on Click as well.

    I don't think that Click is a bad GM or doesn't know baseball.
     
  16. AznH-TownFan

    AznH-TownFan Member

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    Poor Jake has to be in middle of this firestorm between the GM and owner. It really hope he recover completely from the injury and challenge Chas next year for playing time. Kid has great upside before the injury. But for Click to side with an injured player over a veteran that your owner wanted is pretty numbnut and deserve to lose his job. Click sure loves him some Jakes though.
     
  17. xcrunner51

    xcrunner51 Member

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    Timing is everything I suppose but its a shame Putilla bailed out before the job opened up.
     
  18. xcrunner51

    xcrunner51 Member

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    Yea, he'll definitely catch on somewhere. There's some egg on his face but the cache of being the reigning world series GM clearly overcomes that. It was just a bad, somewhat forced fit.
     
  19. Nook

    Nook Member

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    I think that if Crane did not want Click back for certain, he would have just not offered him a deal under any circumstances. Obviously only offering a one year deal makes it very clear that Crane is not confident in Click going forward.

    As for Dusty Baker versus James Click, I don't really see it that way. This wasn't an either/or scenario unless Click made it one.

    I am not a fan of an owner making decisions without a GM obviously, but will withhold judgment until we find out who the Astros next GM will be.
     
  20. Joe Joe

    Joe Joe Go Stros!
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    On it being an either/or, I think it was pretty obvious those two were not aligned. If Crane wasn't going to let the GM pick the manager, Crane should have been the one to decide Dusty or Click (which I'd say he effectively did whether you want to say the deal was not meant to be taken or was a vote of no confidence).
     
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