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Ukraine

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by NewRoxFan, Nov 25, 2018.

  1. Major

    Major Member

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    Sounds like he knew what he was talking about.
     
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  2. foh

    foh Member

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    Ever hear of a phrase cornered animal (or perhaps the more relevant one "don't poke the bear")? You have to give time to russian public and putin himself to realize their strengths/options. They need time to turn their brains on and act rationally. There was a quote by JFK a few pages earlier and it was actually on-point to some degree - you have to give a nuclear nation a palpable exit strategy if you want the world to exist tomorrow.

    Was Iraq war mistake and Afghan war mistake not enough that y'all want to jump a gun elsewhere a few years/decades later?

    Currently, I suspect the strategy is to make russians realize that their army is **** and that they are not fighting american/foreign soldiers out there. That they are fighting just Ukranians and losing miserably and all that talk of grandeur and defending their people from Nazis/Nato is absolute trash. Without popular support & fake news/propoganda, putin becomes nothing both politically and psychologically.

    Playing the long game is the safest bet for the world. Ukraine will be better for it in the long run. And if Ukraine doesn't like it, they can always start peace talks.
     
    #9302 foh, Oct 1, 2022
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2022
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  3. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

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    No we're not. They are no threat to us. All Putin has ever wanted in terms of expansion is the old
    U S.S.R.. No one there wants to spread some already proven dysfunctional economic philosophy like communism.
     
  4. DaDakota

    DaDakota Balance wins
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    I never understood why we would announce those things, just paint them with Ukraine's colors and ship them in....hell send them now.....just don't tell Russia.

    DD
     
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  5. deb4rockets

    deb4rockets Member
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    Can you imagine if Trump was President? He would have handed Ukraine to Putin on a silver platter while licking his boots.
     
  6. basso

    basso Member
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    "all" is doing a lot of work here.
     
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  7. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    and probably USSR would be just the start. Next up, getting the old Eastern Bloc back together. And then, ...
     
    #9307 No Worries, Oct 2, 2022
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2022
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  8. Commodore

    Commodore Member

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  9. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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  10. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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  11. Coach AI

    Coach AI Member

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    so odd how often the GOP propaganda machines do the same work as the Russian state propaganda machines.
     
  12. Andre0087

    Andre0087 Member

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    Birds of a feather flock together...
     
  13. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    Perhaps, Comrade Tucker has over-tanned his nads and lost his mind?

    Asking for a friend.


     
  14. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
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    Russians caught by drones burying a whole bunch of sea mines so the can make a fake video about blowing up a nonexistant Ukrainian ammo store, presumably because all of the real Ukrainian videos of their own ammo stores getting destroyed are just so damn embarrassing.



    Translation:

    Yesterday, telegram channels missed a video of burying “sea mines” by Russians near the Kherson region

    ZMI has already figured out that the occupiers buried 24 tons of TNT near the sea mines to show the capture of the black film “The destruction of the Ukrainian ammunition depot with one shot from the tank” (on the rest of the video).

    @AFUStratCom - latest and greatest news
     
  15. Commodore

    Commodore Member

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  16. Amiga

    Amiga Member

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    Not sure if this was posted here. Powerful piece. He argues for transformation of Russia's government structure. Snippets below. Not paywall.

    Opinion | Alexei Navalny op-ed: How to build a peaceful post-Putin Russia - The Washington Post
    Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny is serving a nine-year sentence in a maximum-security penal colony. This essay was conveyed to The Post by his legal team.

    If we examine the primary things said by Western leaders on this score, the bottom line remains: Russia (Putin) must not win this war. Ukraine must remain an independent democratic state capable of defending itself.

    This is correct, but it is a tactic. The strategy should be to ensure that Russia and its government naturally, without coercion, do not want to start wars and do not find them attractive. This is undoubtedly possible. Right now the urge for aggression is coming from a minority in Russian society.

    In my opinion, the problem with the West’s current tactics lies not just in the vagueness of their aim, but in the fact that they ignore the question: What does Russia look like after the tactical goals have been achieved? Even if success is achieved, where is the guarantee that the world will not find itself confronting an even more aggressive regime, tormented by resentment and imperial ideas that have little to do with reality? With a sanctions-stricken but still big economy in a state of permanent military mobilization? And with nuclear weapons that guarantee impunity for all manner of international provocations and adventures?

    It is easy to predict that even in the case of a painful military defeat, Putin will still declare that he lost not to Ukraine but to the “collective West and NATO,” whose aggression was unleashed to destroy Russia.

    And then, resorting to his usual postmodern repertoire of national symbols — from icons to red flags, from Dostoevsky to ballet — he will vow to create an army so strong and weapons of such unprecedented power that the West will rue the day it defied us, and the honor of our great ancestors will be avenged.

    And then we will see a fresh cycle of hybrid warfare and provocations, eventually escalating into new wars.


    To avoid this, the issue of postwar Russia should become the central issue — and not just one element among others — of those who are striving for peace. No long-term goals can be achieved without a plan to ensure that the source of the problems stops creating them. Russia must cease to be an instigator of aggression and instability. That is possible, and that is what should be seen as a strategic victory in this war.

    There are several important things happening to Russia that need to be understood:

    First, jealousy of Ukraine and its possible successes is an innate feature of post-Soviet power in Russia; it was also characteristic of the first Russian president, Boris Yeltsin. But since the beginning of Putin’s rule, and especially after the Orange Revolution that began in 2004, hatred of Ukraine’s European choice, and the desire to turn it into a failed state, have become a lasting obsession not only for Putin but also for all politicians of his generation.

    Control over Ukraine is the most important article of faith for all Russians with imperial views, from officials to ordinary people. In their opinion, Russia combined with a subordinate Ukraine amounts to a “reborn U.S.S.R. and empire.” Without Ukraine, in this view, Russia is just a country with no chance of world domination. Everything that Ukraine acquires is something taken away from Russia.

    Second, the view of war not as a catastrophe but as an amazing means of solving all problems is not just a philosophy of Putin’s top brass, but a practice confirmed by life and evolution. Since the Second Chechen War, which made the little-known Putin the country’s most popular politician, through the war in Georgia, the annexation of Crimea, the war in Donbas and the war in Syria, the Russian elite over the past 23 years has learned rules that have never failed: War is not that expensive, it solves all domestic political problems, it raises public approval sky-high, it does not particularly harm the economy, and — most importantly — winners face no accountability. Sooner or later, one of the constantly changing Western leaders will come to us to negotiate. It does not matter what motives will lead him — the will of the voters or the desire to receive the Nobel Peace Prize — but if you show proper persistence and determination, the West will come to make peace.

    Third, therefore, the hopes that Putin’s replacement by another member of his elite will fundamentally change this view on war, and especially war over the “legacy of the U.S.S.R.,” is naive at the very least. The elites simply know from experience that war works — better than anything else.

    Fourth, the good news is that the bloodthirsty obsession with Ukraine is not at all widespread outside the power elites, no matter what lies pro-government sociologists might tell.

    The war raises Putin’s approval rating by super-mobilizing the imperially minded part of society. The news agenda is fully consumed by the war; internal problems recede into the background: “Hurray, we’re back in the game, we are great, they’re reckoning with us!” Yet the aggressive imperialists do not have absolute dominance. They do not make up a solid majority of voters, and even they still require a steady supply of propaganda to sustain their beliefs.

    Thus, we can state the following:

    The war with Ukraine was started and waged, of course, by Putin, trying to solve his domestic political problems. But the real war party is the entire elite and the system of power itself, which is an endlessly self-reproducing Russian authoritarianism of the imperial kind. External aggression in any form, from diplomatic rhetoric to outright warfare, is its preferred mode of operation, and Ukraine is its preferred target. This self-generated imperial authoritarianism is the real curse of Russia and the cause of all its troubles. We cannot get rid of it, despite the opportunities regularly provided by history.

    In the 31 years since the collapse of the U.S.S.R., we have witnessed a clear pattern: The countries that chose the parliamentary republic model (the Baltic states) are thriving and have successfully joined Europe. Those that chose the presidential-parliamentary model (Ukraine, Moldova, Georgia) have faced persistent instability and made little progress. Those that chose strong presidential power (Russia, Belarus and the Central Asian republics) have succumbed to rigid authoritarianism, most of them permanently engaged in military conflicts with their neighbors, daydreaming about their own little empires.

    The future model for Russia is not “strong power” and a “firm hand,” but harmony, agreement and consideration of the interests of the whole society. Russia needs a parliamentary republic. That is the only way to stop the endless cycle of imperial authoritarianism.
     
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  17. Amiga

    Amiga Member

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    One may argue that a parliamentary republic is not a panacea. Who, after all, is to prevent Putin or his successor from winning elections and gaining full control over the parliament?

    Of course, even a parliamentary republic does not offer 100 percent guarantees. It could well be that we are witnessing the transition to the authoritarianism of parliamentary India. After the usurpation of power, parliamentary Turkey has been transformed into a presidential one. The core of Putin’s European fan club is paradoxically in parliamentary Hungary.

    And the very notion of a “parliamentary republic” is too broad.

    Yet I believe this cure offers us crucial advantages: a radical reduction of power in the hands of one person, the formation of a government by a parliamentary majority, an independent judiciary system, a significant increase in the powers of local authorities. Such institutions have never existed in Russia, and we are in desperate need of them.

    Certainly, changing Putin’s regime in the country and choosing the path of development are not matters for the West, but jobs for the citizens of Russia. Nevertheless, the West, which has imposed sanctions both on Russia as a state as well as on some of its elites, should make its strategic vision of Russia as a parliamentary democracy as clear as possible. By no means should we repeat the mistake of the West’s cynical approach in the 1990s, when the post-Soviet elite was effectively told: “You do what you want there; just watch your nuclear weapons and supply us with oil and gas.” Indeed, even now we hear cynical voices saying similar things: “Let them just pull back the troops and do what they want from there. The war is over, the mission of the West is accomplished.” That mission was already “accomplished” with Russia’s annexation of Crimea in 2014, and the result is a full-fledged war in Europe in 2022.

    This is a simple, honest and fair approach: The Russian people are of course free to choose their own path of development. But Western countries are free to choose the format of their relations with Russia, to lift or not to lift sanctions, and to define the criteria for such decisions. The Russian people and the Russian elite do not need to be forced. They need a clear signal and an explanation of why such a choice is better. Crucially, parliamentary democracy is also a rational and desirable choice for many of the political factions around Putin. It gives them an opportunity to maintain influence and fight for power while ensuring that they are not destroyed by a more aggressive group.

    War is a relentless stream of crucial, urgent decisions influenced by constantly shifting factors. Therefore, while I commend European leaders for their ongoing success in supporting Ukraine, I urge them not to lose sight of the fundamental causes of war. The threat to peace and stability in Europe is aggressive imperial authoritarianism, endlessly inflicted by Russia upon itself. Postwar Russia, like post-Putin Russia, will be doomed to become belligerent and Putinist again. This is inevitable as long as the current form of the country’s development is maintained. Only a parliamentary republic can prevent this. It is the first step toward transforming Russia into a good neighbor that helps to solve problems rather than create them.
     
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  18. Xerobull

    Xerobull ...and I'm all out of bubblegum
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  19. DaDakota

    DaDakota Balance wins
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    Would not be surprised if Tucker Carlson just disappears, some day.

    DD
     
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  20. El_Conquistador

    El_Conquistador King of the D&D, The Legend, #1 Ranking

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    The Nord Stream pipeline runs from Russia to Germany. If Russia wanted to blow it up, why would they choose a location in the Baltic Sea near Poland to do so? Completely nonsensical.
     

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