I just think you are flat our wrong about Tolkien's intentions - just because of the world he created didn't have racial minorities, you forget that wasn't part of his day to day existence in that time period. Tolkien is clearly referencing race when he talks about men vs elves vs dwarfs, and it's not true that everyone in the west is light skin as he described the harfoots as being of browner skin. Tolkien was anti-racist, not racist, but regardless, we can argue forever without never truly knowing what a man dead for half a century thinks about modern times. Regardless, none of that should really matter. Even Peter Jackson made numerous changes from the books to the movies. Why is he allowed creative license but others are not?
Watched episode 3 last night and agree with the other comments. It looks great with some wonderful looking sets. I'm still not sold so much on the acting and the story especially how it changes from what Tolkein had written. Spoiler I don't hate the Harfoots but I don't really like them that much either. It seems very much they are just redoing Nori as a young female Baggins with the same story that Hobbits / Harfoots are timid people who literally don't stick their necks but there are some of them who hunger for adventure and a different way of life. One thing I find interesting about Harfoot culture is whether for woke or creative reasons they are making their culture much more aboriginal in the sense of casting people who look like they are likly aboriginal Australians but also having them dress in masks and costumes that are likely inspired by aboriginal ceremonial head dresses. Tolkein might not have objected to this as in LOTR the riders of Rohan do encounter primitive people who ultimately help them. Why the overall look is great I still find some directorial decisions odd. I mean did they really need to spend a whole scene just showing that Galadiriel likes to ride horses?
Except Tolkein did have other races of men and almost all of the nonwhite one's were evil. Again you have to understand Tolkein was a man of his time and culture. Mid 20th Century British had attitudes that we would now consider racist. I cited in another thread specifcally where Tolkein wrote that the Orcs were "Mongolian" in appearance. While they oppposed Hitler and didn't like Apartheid they certainly didn't consider the diferent races or cultures to be equal. Further Tolkein's universe is based upon Celtic and Anglo Saxon mythology. The heroes and gods in those were people that looked Celtic and Anglo-Saxon. Of course Peter Jackson made numerous changes, most of them in the Hobbit movies not for the good. Yes people can have artistic license. You could give the Elves guns and fighter planes which would be artistic license too. This is about how much fealty do you pay to the source material. In some respects they are paying a lot of fealty to it with characters names but in others they aren't. The most I can see for multi-racial casting is to make it more palatable for current audiences and not really for any other reason. Yes they can do that but I would hope that reinterpretting and readapting art would be doing things for more creative reasons.
I think you are taking the universe Tolkien created way too literally and rigidly. People thinking someone is racist because they used Victorian ideas of monsters and humans is a bit out there in my opinion. Comparing having a black Dwarf to putting fight planes in - really? That's the analogy you go with? Of all the changes Peter Jackson made or they made here, it just seems to small to complain about the skin color of extras and cursory characters
Most of the people, to me it seems, complaining about the random "wokeness" are doing so because they are people that indeed take Tolkien lore either seriously, or enough in their memory that it's important to them. This analogy has been used before, and its not 100% apples to apples, but its a solid analogy, a Caucasian Black Panther would be a problem, too. Even with that, alternatively, black SpiderMan (Morales) is fine because they wrote it and created a"culture"/"feel" in the film that it makes 100% sense. The issue with the "wokeness" being used (mind you, i use wokeness in quotes cause as a liberal i think the term in general is stupid and one of those made up words that right wingers assign a meaning to that doesn't make sense and in 99.9% of scenarios isn't true... but here.... hmmmm) is that it not only doesnt fit in the Tolkien lore, it then wasn't done in a way that the change makes sense. Its just random minorities here or there... that's, well odd. It doesn't matter if its a fantasy and everything is make believe, it still has to be believable. And they way they're "sprinkled" in (and that's what they are randomly sprinkled) doesn't make much sense. And its not just that they are randomly sprinkled in... why is it a random black character - for example, we have a focal or secondary black character with multiple memorable speaking lines in Elf, Hobbit and dwarf. There are other minorities you know. That there's not (and basically NEVER) for example an Indian person in a role like that is interesting. Asian actors seem "stuck" playing clear asian characters. We get basically NO hispanic characters in anything, unless they are playing cartel members. Hispanics represent the largest minority group in America. Im very very liberal. Im enjoying this show a lot. But there's no denying there was a concerted effort to "sprinkle" African American actors into characters and roles in a way that makes little sense to hit some kind of political correctness quota ... and if that's making the show less good/great for some people, i can't strongly push back, cause it is indeed a bit offputting.
According to SAG's statistics for credited speaking parts in US made media, Hispanics are the most under-represented group. Hispanic people make up ~19% of the US population but make up less than 7% of all roles. Whites are the next most under-represented group: In 2021 and the first half of 2022, white people made up slightly less than 50% of all credited speaking parts, while ~60% of the population. Blacks are the most over represented, making up 23% of credited speaking parts and shockingly 35% of advertising speaking parts while being 13%. Asians, which includes those that are South Asian (Indian, etc.) are almost dead on the nose...~5-6% of actors and ~5-6% of the population. The studies did find that over 50% of Asian representation was that of a comedic role, even in non comedic media, thus it posited that Asians were often being used as the "punchline" When it comes to the show itself, I've enjoyed it. A lot of what people are saying is "non-cannon" isn't actually non-cannon. Some of the creative license taken by the creators can be explained by the fact that Tolkien just didn't mention it one way or the other. The Harfoots being a more native migrant tribe actually fits into the description of the Hobbit origins, and we know that Middle Earth has ancient and native populations sprinkled around. That's what makes Middle Earth so great, the fact that Tolkien built a giant world and most of it is still a mystery or unexplained. I like the depiction of haughty Numenor so far, it fits with the narrative. What many people don't know is that Numenor at this point is basically the mightiest civilization that Middle Earth has ever seen, or will ever see. They are incredibly powerful at this point, and I hope we see that represented in the show. Other than that, some parts are a little boring, but its drawing me in. I feel like we've had 1.5 excellent episodes buried in 3 actual episodes.
None of the main characters that are referenced from LOTR are black. The analogy would be more fitting if there were White and Arab Wakandans during the fight sequences...an Othello for non-Blacks. I remember when LOTR nerds hated that Elf chick hogging up screentime in the original trilogy, so some backlash is expected. It's fair to ask how possible or necessary it is, but would Black fans start trashing the entire series because of the Woke Casting? I think people were fine with Miles because it's an entirely different character who wasn't replacing the original, and there wasn't a deliberate point to level Miles up by de-powering the original... "Not only is She a Woman, but She does it bestest among dumb violent villains!" It also helps that the movie was unexpectedly great. I suppose we now apply that Twice as Hard standard for all Woke movies to prove Everything Is Fine. It's also a casting decision when they add white folk who aren't blonde and blue eyed as elves or cast a soulless ginger from time to time. Seems like many folks claim to be Color-Blind until the Purity of the works they mainly consume has been...tampered with.
The casting of the white elves has ALSO been a big issue i've heard many times - Elrond, the king, the dude who wants to make the rings... none of them look right and there's been plenty of b****ing about that too from what i've seen.
Setting aside that you can't please that group until the show matures, if ever...there are other groups who aren't fanatical and just hate the casting by virtue of the characters not being all white. I mean the LOTR purists can bankroll their own series for their own enjoyment or hate-watch in a huff and vent on their channels with sub-10k viewers.
Am I the only one that likes the Elrond actor? Elendil is supposed to be 7'11", so maybe they should have cast Boban.
when you describe the race of bad guys in your story with features like sallow skin, slant eyes and as “mongolian” that is kind of racist. If the argument is that this is fantasy so why. It give them guns and fighter planes? If it’s just fantasy and doesn’t exist in reality then the writers could do anything. I criticized Jackson quite a bit for some for he changes he made.
This largely my criticism. Besides it not being true to Tolkein in strikes me as lazy film making to just recast the characters or just act like that people lived in multi racial communities in Middle Earth when Tolkien very clearly didn’t describe them that way. In fact Tolkien was very specific in his description of the elves and the houses of the men they stood with the Elves and later became the men of Numenor. They all had white features. In LOTR part of why there is an alliance between Gondor and Rohan is that Rohimir remind the descendents of Numenor of their ancestors of the House of Haldor who were tall blonde and blue eyed. If the producers really wanted to diversify they could’ve written in roles for a Haradrim / Souhthron character who were what the black men were called.
I am watching the show and so far it’s not bad and keeping my attention. Changing the race and ethnicity isn’t enough to keep me from watching but as a Tolkein fan and expressing my own criticism this does strike me as lazy filmmaking that doesn’t add anything artistically to it.
You are taking it out of context of the age. "Mongoloid" was even used by the WHO in their diagnostic set for Down's Syndrome. But I can see how you'd see him as racist for that.
True “Mongolian” was a racial descriptor in those days and not necessarily a racist insult. What makes Tolkein kind of racist is that he uses that term to specifically describe the evil beings in his story. But I’m curious why are you so interested in defending Tolkein? I’m obviously a Tolkein fan but I fully accept he was a man of his time and embodied that in his writings. He most likely wouldn’t have approved of the casting because he specifically doesn’t describe the elves of the men of the west as being multi racial. Why so determined to say that somehow Tolkein would? That strikes me as trying to project on him current values.
When you look at what he wrote, ""...squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes; in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types" To me it reads as he is recognizing the European stereotypes and he is saying he is playing off of it by making a caricature of it. The very fact he writes, "to Europeans" demonstrates it is not necessarily his own view. So take it as you will, but you can see why to me, it's not clear to me that he is being racist here.
