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Supreme Court overturns Roe v. Wade, eliminating constitutional right to abortion

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Reeko, Jun 24, 2022.

  1. VooDooPope

    VooDooPope Love > Hate
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    organized religion has caused more suffering than consensual sexual relations. Can we ban that too. Talk about groomers.
     
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  2. Nook

    Nook Member

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    All the articles like these are interesting but don't really get us anywhere.

    Roe v. Wade was over turned largely because of luck. McConnell made the strategic decision to not hold a vote on the nomination of Garland.... a smart decision, and then Trump surprised people and won the Presidency. He was able to appoint multiple Justices and the configuration of the Court changed to a super majority conservative so Roe v. Wade was overturned. The Supreme Court is the most insulated branch of the government as well.

    Also, the beliefs of people in general have changed, especially those 50 and under, on both sides. A lot of women, especially those under 50 agree with the positions articulated by Jemele Hill. The general view is that men should not have any say over what a woman does with her body, that women should not have their bodies legislated, that women should not be scorned or judged for making decisions about their reproductive rights and that the patriarchy needs to back off.

    https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/jemele-hill-opens-up-about-getting-an-abortion-at-26-190527503.html

    Jemele Hill opens up about getting an abortion at 26: 'I simply had no desire to give birth to a child'
    Kerry Justich
    Tue, June 28, 2022, 2:05 PM·6 min read



    In an op-ed written in response to the Supreme Court's decision to overturn Roe v. Wade, Jemele Hill has revealed that she had an abortion when she was 26.

    The sports journalist, now 46, penned a personal piece for The Atlantic, opening up about the decision for the first time publicly.
    "I had an abortion when I was 26 years old. I was not raped. I wasn’t the victim of incest. I was not in the midst of a life-threatening medical emergency. I simply had no desire to give birth to a child," Hill wrote. "I know that I’m likely to be attacked for being candid about my decision. But I’m choosing to share some of my experience now because, like so many women in this country, I am angry, appalled, and disgusted about the Supreme Court’s decision to overturn Roe v. Wade, the landmark ruling that previously guaranteed federal constitutional protections for abortion rights."

    Hill spoke about the context surrounding her abortion, sharing that she was a sports journalist for Detroit Free Press in Michigan at the time. "I was financially able to support a child. I have no doubt that my family would have been present for me. The man I was involved with at the time would have provided support. His family would have been there for us too," she explained. "However, I didn’t see a long-term future with him. And given that my mother and father never married — and I knew their tumultuous history very well — I didn’t want to bring a child into an unstable relationship."

    With a lot of job ambitions, as well, the timing for Hill to become a mother didn't feel right.

    "My career meant everything to me," she continued. "I was pursuing my dream of being a sports journalist. I understood clearly that having a child would have drastically limited the future I saw for myself. Parenting would be difficult to fit into my lifestyle because, as a college beat reporter, I was on the road for nearly eight months a year covering Michigan State football and basketball."

    Hill's career goals felt in reach as she was covering a nationally prominent basketball team, and having a child, she explained, felt like a threat to that.

    "I didn’t want to sacrifice my body or devote my time to raising a child. I wanted to travel the world. I wanted the freedom to live wherever I wanted and to navigate my career without having to factor a child into my plans," she wrote.

    While Hill acknowledged the harsh judgement she'll likely face as a result of her openness surrounding her decision-making, she addressed the important difference between the pressures and expectations facing men and women.

    "I’m aware that some people will read this and think that I was selfish. Women are judged harshly for pursuing their goals as ambitiously as men do," she wrote. "Some people will probably call me irresponsible. But mistakes happen. Just because an unwanted pregnancy occurs — and it doesn’t matter if it’s within the context of a relationship, a one-night stand, or a 'situationship' — that doesn’t mean a woman should be punished by being forced to have a child she doesn’t want to raise."

    Hill assured readers that she was confident in her decision and didn't experience guilt around the abortion itself, but rather the idea that others might find her inhumane as a result.

    "It took me some time to realize that I shouldn’t have to apologize for wanting control of my body and life. Women consider and choose abortion for a variety of reasons, and sometimes one of those reasons is that childbirth simply isn’t something they wish to do," she wrote. "That’s the meaningful thing about choice: You have the right to make a decision based purely on what you think is best for yourself."

    The writer touched on the "moral complexities" surrounding the debate about abortion but offered that even as a married woman in her 40s, she remains secure in her decision to be childless. She also expressed her gratitude for the abortion clinic that made it possible, as well as fear for women who won't have that same access after Friday's ruling.

    "Future generations of women will not have the same right to an abortion as I had. That I have fewer rights as a woman today than I did when I had an abortion more than 20 years ago is a pitiful commentary on the direction of this country," she wrote. "The Supreme Court’s Dobbs ruling was regressive and political, and those states that have trigger laws banning abortions should know that these laws will not stop abortions. Women will always try to decide what is best for their bodies, whether it’s legal or not."

    Hill concluded, "The pain so many women are feeling right now is unshakable. Our status in America — our very freedom — has been irrevocably diminished. Yet sharing our abortion stories carries enormous power. No woman needs to think of herself as immoral because she had an abortion or wants an abortion. What’s immoral is telling women that they don’t deserve bodily autonomy."

    While Hill faced some negativity from critics online, she also was met with support for coming out with her story — most notably those praising her statement "we don't need to justify ****."
     
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  3. HTM

    HTM Member

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    I've never said we should "ban" anything. Drinking 128 ounces of soda every day is bad for humans, people do it every day, that doesn't mean we should ban it. People make poor and irresponsible decisions in all facets of life all the time, including with their sexual faculties. Sometimes it results in really tragic consequences.
     
  4. HTM

    HTM Member

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    You would just like to hand wave everything I've said away as "religion" because you cannot deal with the arguments, which haven't mentioned religion at all.

    I get it but I won't let you.
     
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  5. Nook

    Nook Member

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    I am getting older, some will soon say old.

    What I can say in my experience being around a wide variety of people over the last 4 decades is that people are going to have sex, and it is very seldom to have children. You can call it a bio imperative or you can call it human nature, but people find a way to have sex. It doesn't matter if it is poor people or rich people, men or women - but a sizeable portion of people are going to have sex.

    Any position that is "well people shouldn't have sex" isn't going to be successful. Also, FWIW the research shows that the overwhelming majority of abortions are from people that used birth control and it failed (in practice it has a 5-6% failure rate). More abortions are from people in marriages than men realize.

    Also, more women have had abortions than men realize. Our perspective as men is very different than the perspective of women; especially younger women.
     
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  6. HTM

    HTM Member

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    Uh, yea, you have to be responsible for your actions and decisions...

    Yea, dude, I blame both partners, both partners bear responsibility in consensual sex.

    Your ex is one of two people who chose to engage in sex irresponsibly and bears some responsibility...

    I'm not ignoring men... I've castigated men lots in here and I'm happy to do it.

    What do you want.. me to assign a % for your Ex and the man every time I mention they bear responsibility for their actions?

    Uh, this is a debate and discussion forum... I'm explaining my thoughts vis-a-vis human sexuality. Many people will say, "Do whatever you want, be happy, have as much sex as you can get while you're alive" which ignores the fact that sex is a weighty and responsible human activity, but they don't want to have to take a hard look at themselves, their selfishness and the consequences or potential consequences of their actions. Which, if you look around, can be seen all over, single moms, kids growing up in poverty, women dealing with the emotional toll of abortion etc etc.

    Yea, you, and everyone else "moralizes" all the time about any number of issues. Morals are a topic of human interest. Hopefully everyone has some. Mind extend to the responsible use of ones sexual faculties to avoid unneeded human suffering.
     
  7. HTM

    HTM Member

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    I don't think a position of abstinence will be successful because people are generally unthoughtful, poorly disciplined and go through life chasing rushes. This can be seen with food, personal finances... sex.

    That doesn't mean it's not the correct thing to do or strive for and that doesn't mean it's not something that should be told to people.

    I'm sure you've lived long enough to see that a lot of unfortunate situations arise from men pressuring women to have sex or being the primary driver in the initiation of sex. Men should do better but people are generally, unthoughtful and selfish. It's sad and common but it doesn't make it right.

    So much needless human suffering from people's irresponsible use of their sexual faculties and 90% of the goons in here dgaf. They are trying to "hit it and quit it", objectify women, conquer as many women as possible, damn the consequences. It's pathetic and sad. It's not something I consider what makes up a "good man."
     
  8. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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    Can the FDA Stop States From Banning Abortion Pills?
    The FDA could work with the Department of Justice to sue states over mifepristone bans. But should it?

    https://reason.com/2022/06/29/can-the-fda-stop-states-from-banning-abortion-pills/

    excerpt:

    If you need any more evidence that the abortion law landscape will get even more murky than we can imagine, look no further than this statement from U.S. Attorney General Merrick Garland. With more than a dozen states moving to make abortion illegal within their borders, America's top cop suggests the feds could thwart this by citing Food and Drug Administration (FDA) authority.

    Reacting to last week's Supreme Court ruling overturning Roe v. Wade, Garland said "the Justice Department strongly disagrees with the Court's decision."

    The Department stands "ready to work with other arms of the federal government that seek to use their lawful authorities to protect and preserve access to reproductive care," Garland added. "In particular, the FDA has approved the use of the medication Mifepristone. States may not ban Mifepristone based on disagreement with the FDA's expert judgment about its safety and efficacy."

    Mifepristone is part of a two-pill regimen approved by the FDA to terminate pregnancies up to 10 weeks.

    States that have banned or plan to ban abortion say this prohibition applies to not just surgical procedures but also these pills, which provide what's called medical abortions. Garland's statement suggests the federal government won't let the latter happen.

    "The Justice Department will use every tool at our disposal to protect reproductive freedom," said Garland. He added that "few rights are more central to individual freedom than the right to control one's own body."

    That last statement is a bit ironic coming from a federal government that still criminalizes mar1juana (not to mention many other drugs), routinely cooperates with local police departments to catch people having sex for money, tried to strong-arm employees of private companies into getting vaccinated, and is instituting a new war on nicotine.

    But at least Garland recognizes that people have some right to control their own bodies. That's unambiguously a good thing.
    more at the link
     
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  9. StupidMoniker

    StupidMoniker I lost a bet
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    When they say used birth control and it failed, what they usually mean is the person says they regularly use birth control but didn't in this particular instance. That is where the failure rate comes from. Condoms don't break or fall off 6% of the time (and certainly not that frequently without anyone noticing), but people that claim to be users of condoms have a failure that often, and it is caused by oops I wasn't wearing it that time. That is why things like IUDs and implants are far more effective. They don't work better than the pill being used properly, they just remove the element of user error (ie not taking the pill every day). As an example, in perfect use the pill is 99.7% effective. In "typical use" (meaning a study of women who say they use the pill for birth control) the pill is 93% effective.
    How Do You Interpret Birth Control Failure Rates? (verywellhealth.com)
     
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  10. Nook

    Nook Member

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    There are studies that try to account for it and I agree with you that not all birth control is equal.

    As for condoms, they have a failure rate of as high as 14% (https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/better-birth-control-hasnt-made-abortion-obsolete/) and there are a variety of reasons for it.

    The pill under perfect use and conditions has a 99.7% effective rate, but the reality is people don't take it perfectly. Women will miss a day, take it at other times and sometimes other medications play a part in decreasing it's effectiveness as well. It is just human nature.

    IUD's and implants are very nasty for a lot of women, and there are health consequences. At my office we have sued successfully IUD makers.

    The best way to cut down abortions is to have free and readily available birth control, there is a lot of data that supports it. We have increased access to free birth control and it has cut the abortion rate, but we need to do more.
     
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  11. AkeemTheDreem86

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    Your "argument" is that having sex for pleasure causes human suffering. On what do you base that "argument"?

    You're like the Chic Fil A cow wearing a trench coat and those goofy disguise glasses telling us to "eat mor chikin". We can see your spots, dude.
     
  12. HTM

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    That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is the irresponsible use of the sexual faculties often results in great human suffering. People can have sex for pleasure if they are at a place in life where they can bear the responsibilities of their actions without putting people in extremely shi**y spots.

    You cannot adequately deal with the arguments, which have no religious basis, so you're trying to find a cheap off ramp.
     
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  13. geeimsobored

    geeimsobored Contributing Member

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    Colorado is a perfect case study in this. They cut the abortion rate in HALF within a decade with some pretty simple reforms. The number of abortions performed is now the lowest in its history (since abortion was legalized in 1973). Additionally, Colorado was above average in terms of its teen birth rate but is now well below the national average in terms of number of teen births. Colorado did a few smart things:

    1. Pharmacists can issue prescriptions for birth control there which allows women to bypass the doctor entirely. Getting birth control is as simple as going to the pharmacy. I believe there are only three states in the US that allow this but Colorado is one of them. The simple barrier to entry of having to go to both a doctor and then a pharmacist causes serious problems.

    2. Colorado also has expanded medicaid (so lower income women get free birth control through that program) and women who are uninsured can also qualify for free birth control from a separate fund.

    3. Colorado has a system of family planning clinics that are run by the government across the state. These clinics do charge a means tested fee but poorer men and women (regardless of whether they are on Medicaid) qualify for free services.

    4. All teens in Colorado qualify for free IUDs. Yes IUDs have problems but the teen pregnancy rate has collapsed in Colorado since the introduction of the IUD program.
     
  14. MadMax

    MadMax Contributing Member

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    So to be clear...you think the government should intervene to regulate the whole "sex for pleasure" among consensual adults thing?
     
  15. HTM

    HTM Member

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    No. I don't think that. I've already stated that.

    It's funny how people try and misdirect things you say. Pretty much happens in every post here.

    Things can be bad for society but the government does not need to regulate it.

    It's sad people abuse food and drink and suffer because they are obese or deal with addiction.

    It's sad people aren't more responsible with their personal finances and suffer because of it.

    It's sad people aren't more responsible with how they use their sexual faculties and people suffer because of it.

    People make poor choices in all facets of life. I don't think the government should take away your ability to do so, at least not when it comes to sex.

    We can and should make more responsible decisions though, and that's what I'm advocating for. People don't want to here hard truths though. Just keep the pleasure train rolling at any cost.
     
  16. JoeBarelyCares

    JoeBarelyCares Contributing Member

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    https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-drinks-12-diet-coke-watch-tv-cable-news-2017-12
     
  17. HTM

    HTM Member

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  18. CCorn

    CCorn Member

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    You’re making the assumption that all I wanted to do was hit it and quit it and that was never the case. I’m also happily married now.
     
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  19. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    You argument that people should only have sex to procreate is not based on rational deduction but on religious beliefs. The belief that it results in pain. There's no consideration whether having an active sex life between two people is just healthy and beneficial. Most marriages without sex fall apart as sex is far more than just pleasure and procreation.

    The only people I have ever seen say, "well sex only leads to bad things so never do it unless you are trying to have a baby" are very religious. You argument is based on your moral beliefs, not scientific facts.
     
  20. HTM

    HTM Member

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    Literally never said this.

    The amount of things I have to tell people in here, "I never said this" is remarkable.
     

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