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[CHE] A New Group Promises to Protect Campus Free Speech

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Os Trigonum, Mar 8, 2021.

  1. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Member
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  2. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Member
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  3. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Member

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    I think it's unfortunately people called for Sharpio's firing. His tweet was inflammatory, but not rooted in racism. If he can articulate a difference between her and whom he'd pick more clearly, maybe that would have helped.

    The problem with his argument was that Brown was more qualified than the last person picked to the court, so his position is pretty bad, but still, I don't think it merited the actions taken against him.

    That's a lot different from Amy Wax, whose statements clearly run against the values of the University. Outright racism isn't just offensive, it's antithesis to the very idea of the goals of any academic institution. And Amy Wax is obviously an open racist and white supremisist.
     
  4. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Member
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    I am aware of the basic controversies surrounding Amy Wax, but I am far from conversant on the specific things she might have said over time. I know for sure that some of her purely descriptive statements about her own students' academic success (or lack thereof) have been interpreted as her being an "open racist and white supremacist," and re: those particular statements I would disagree that they demonstrate any such thing.

    But again, I am far from familiar with the entire range of things she has said or written over the course of her career. Her academic freedom to write or say these things over the course of her career is again a completely separate issue.
     
  5. Nook

    Nook Member

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    While I do not agree with Prof. Mearsheimer's conclusions, I do think it is important that well educated and informed opinions should be presented in a university setting. There really isn't any questioning the knowledge and depth of his understanding on the topic. Part of college is having your opinions and ideas challenged. That doesn't mean everyone should or will embrace Mearsheimer, but that students should critically consider what he is saying, and reach their own informed opinions.

    What I have noticed is that now, people are branded forever based on their beliefs or values at a really young age and I don't think that is healthy or a benefit to anyone. In college people should be able to voice and discuss unpopular opinions in good faith. I can tell you that I had beliefs and made statements in college that I would not make now, and some of them would probably be controversial - but through college and graduate school is how I learned to evolve in my thought. Be that about war, gender (a big change for me), classism or any number of issues.

    Alienating people with unpopular opinions isn't a benefit to anyone. They don't change their opinions when they are socially doxed or destroyed in college of social media. They take hard lines and dig in. That is not to say that people cannot be critical of opinions that they disagree with or debate. However some are trying to destroy others based on statements said long ago, or for sheer ignorance.
     
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  6. Nook

    Nook Member

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    He never should have been in jeopardy of losing his job.

    I do not agree with politically on certain issues but he is and was qualified for his position at Georgetown.
     
  7. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Member
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    what makes his situation all the more untenable is that is supposed to be doing constitutional law. Hard to do that without some sort of basic reassurance that he can proceed to do that the way he chooses to do it
     
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  8. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Member

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    Do you think that those employed by an academic institution should abide by the institutions stated mission and values in their work?
     
  9. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Member
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    this is one of those loaded "when did you stop beating your wife" type of leading questions. Most institutions' "stated mission and values" are incredibly poorly written. There are many cases recently where institutional activities (including faculty review, punishment, and dismissal) have run DIRECTLY COUNTER to those institutions' "stated mission and values" statements as publicly asserted and voted upon by faculty legislatures etc.

    So I guess you need to be WAY more specific about your question. And providing an example would really help coax a better answer out of me than this kind of too-easy "gotcha" attempt. ;)
     
  10. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Member
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    and lest I be accused of being too vague on the recent examples of institutions going against their stated values . . . many commenters have observed that the desire to institutionalize DEI statements of mission and values tends to go directly against the stated mission of "educate people" and "conduct research" that are generally at the base of most institutions' stated "mission and values."
     
  11. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Member
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    and discussion of how this has played out at the University of Massachusetts Boston, with links to several other things worth looking at:

    The backlash to U Mass/Boston's proposal to cease being a university in favor of becoming an "anti-racist" institution

    https://leiterreports.typepad.com/b...ersity-in-favor-of-becoming-an-anti-raci.html
     
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  12. ThatBoyNick

    ThatBoyNick Member

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    [​IMG]
     
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  13. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Member

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    I'm not that well versed in academia and don't know how poorly or well activities run counter to their missions, values, and code of conduct.

    My opinion is that someone who espouses white nationalistic ideas probably doesn't belong at Penn - which is actually my alma matter. When someone says that this country should have less Asians - that the US would be better off with less Asians (not just less immigration from Asia mind you), that's goes beyond being offensive into the territory of threatening. That feels more like a call to arms and violence.

    I don't see why advocating for the removal of a group based on race - ethnic cleansing - should be considered academic freedom. I think it's fair to say that academics should still have a sanctity for human life at the very least, and the rights of people as citizens. Yeah, she should be fired.
     
  14. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Member
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    well, this is your first mistake. You are likely taking other peoples' word for it about Wax's putative "white supremacy."

    Hearsay and anecdote are probably not a good basis for either hiring or termination
     
  15. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Member
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    and I'll cite one of my wife's recent cases: a new hire who allegedly was "caught" espousing racist doctrines on social media.

    When a thorough, non-hearsay based investigation ensued, it turned out that the individual so-accused had been quoting what he considered to be a canonical text and so well-known in his discipline that no further attribution was needed--which made sense given the forum he was in when he made the original statement.

    Social media social justice warriors picked on the initial statement, played the "telephone game" with it in countless iterations, and voila this person who would be a STELLAR hire became a RACIST and WHITE SUPREMACIST. (Actually I think he became an ANTI-SEMITE, but don't quote me on that.)

    The point being: there's always more to the story than what gets reported or re-reported.
     
  16. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Member

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    No, I read HER statements and it was clear to me that yes she is a white supremisist. Why would you assume I am relying on hearsay?
     
  17. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Member
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    that's fine, I appreciate learning about your opinions
     
  18. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Member

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    As I enjoy learning about yours. Do you disagree that she is a white supremisist? Or do you disagree that she said that we're "better off with fewer asians?" or are you saying none of that matters as it's all academic freedom?
     
  19. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Member
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    I don't know whether she is a white supremacist or not. I have seen no convincing evidence that she is. I would like to see you provide specific statements of hers that have convinced YOU that she is a white supremacist

    I am aware of the Asians comment but don't recall the specifics. I do not recall that the statement was a knock-down, 100% proof of her racism.

    I'll cite another example: her fairly well-known statement that she had never seen black students graduate in the top half of a class (cued up at 49:05):



    Note what this statement says and what it does NOT say. This statement is about her PERSONAL MEMORY of prominent students graduating in the top 2-3 or in the top 50 percent of a class. This is NOT a statement that tells us "blacks are incapable of graduating in the top half of a law school class."

    Moreover, she adds to that her personal recollection of how many black students have excelled in her first-year class. "One or two" she tells us.

    Again, this is simply an anecdote that she relays about her own personal recollection. Honestly, it's nothing more and nothing less. It is a statement about HER, and not about "black students" per se.

    Instead, that statement gets described as the quintessential proof of her "racism." To cite one example, from USA Today:

    Amy Wax said black students can't excel in law school. Bless her heart, we can and do.
    Penn professor Amy Wax suggested black students couldn't excel. Don't let the negativity get to you. I didn't, and I became a White House legal adviser.
    Michelle J. Millben
    Opinion contributor

    Professor Amy Wax was removed from teaching first-year courses at the University of Pennsylvania law school after she made disrespectful comments about the academic performance of black students.

    Specifically, without providing any data, she said last fall that she had not seen a black student graduate at the top quarter or top half of his or her class at the law school. She went on to suggest that some black students should not attend college. In short, she promoted the concept of black academic inferiority, and without any substantiation.
    Note what this author (Millben) gets wrong. She takes an accurate descriptive statement ("she said last fall that she had not seen a black student graduate at the top quarter or top half of his or her class at the law school") and then turns that into a normative claim that Wax "promoted the concept of black academic inferiority."

    I think that's a drastic over-interpretation of the tenor and tone of Wax's remarks with Glenn Loury. I think it is nearly IMPOSSIBLE to draw from those comments a 100% certain conclusion that "This proves Wax is a racist."

    Making these kinds of criticisms of academics who are accustomed to speaking freely will only have the long-term effect of making non-BIPOC academics shut the hell up and avoid the topics of race, ethnicity, gender, sexuality, etc., completely. That's not what academia is supposed to be about.

     
    #99 Os Trigonum, Jun 6, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2022
  20. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Member

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    I don't know about her statements on black students, also the piece you are sharing is an opinion piece, which are just to me all garbage (as I think I've shared in many prior posts) that are more designed to inflame and draw reactions than anything else.

    This is what she wrote

    “As long as most Asians support Democrats and help to advance their positions, I think the United States is better off with fewer Asians and less Asian immigration.”

    https://www.reuters.com/legal/legal...d-us-better-off-with-fewer-asians-2022-01-18/

    I don't understand how someone saying the US is better off with few Asians, in any context, comes across as anything but racist. I certainly read it with alarm. Let me just clarify that I use the word alarm, because I don't find it offensive, I find it alarming.

    Then I read some of the transcript from the podcast she did, and was even more surprised. Her argument basically summarizes as follows - Asians come here from shithole countries, take advantage of America to get rich and wealthy, and then have the nerve to criticize the US when their shithole countries are far worse. She specifically claims South Asian women doctors are the worst transgressors of this. Never mind that they were mostly born here and not in India, and that they contribute far more to the US and they "take advantage off"

    Yeah, I find that to racist, white nationalist, and jingoistic. This person based on these viewpoints, shouldn't be teaching students at all. This kind of view point is disqualifying and doesn't belong in any institution that advocates for a pluralistic society. It's one thing to have a hypothetical consideration of white nationalism, and entirely another thing to passionately endorse its viewpoints.

     

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