1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Ukraine

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by NewRoxFan, Nov 25, 2018.

  1. deb4rockets

    deb4rockets Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2013
    Messages:
    20,460
    Likes Received:
    26,482
  2. dc rock

    dc rock Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2001
    Messages:
    7,132
    Likes Received:
    12,103
  3. dc rock

    dc rock Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2001
    Messages:
    7,132
    Likes Received:
    12,103
  4. No Worries

    No Worries Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 1999
    Messages:
    30,491
    Likes Received:
    17,493
    Putin must be sick AF to be hiding out in a "command plane".
     
    Hakeemtheking likes this.
  5. No Worries

    No Worries Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 1999
    Messages:
    30,491
    Likes Received:
    17,493
  6. DaDakota

    DaDakota If you want to know, just ask!
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 1999
    Messages:
    124,577
    Likes Received:
    33,571
    A couple of well placed Ukrainians with shoulder fired anti aircraft missiles would be welcomed.

    DD
     
  7. basso

    basso Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    30,128
    Likes Received:
    6,757
    Geography students represent.

     
    JuanValdez likes this.
  8. basso

    basso Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    30,128
    Likes Received:
    6,757
  9. dc rock

    dc rock Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2001
    Messages:
    7,132
    Likes Received:
    12,103
  10. basso

    basso Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    30,128
    Likes Received:
    6,757
  11. No Worries

    No Worries Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 1999
    Messages:
    30,491
    Likes Received:
    17,493
    Defenestration may be in his future.
     
  12. basso

    basso Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    30,128
    Likes Received:
    6,757
  13. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2002
    Messages:
    56,828
    Likes Received:
    39,147
    THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

    The War Is Getting More Dangerous for America, and Biden Knows It
    May 6, 2022

    If you just followed news reports on Ukraine, you might think that the war has settled into a long, grinding and somewhat boring slog. You would be wrong.

    Things are actually getting more dangerous by the day.

    For starters, the longer this war goes on, the more opportunity for catastrophic miscalculations — and the raw material for that is piling up fast and furious. Take the two high-profile leaks from American officials this past week about U.S. involvement in the Russia-Ukraine war:

    First, The Times disclosed that “the United States has provided intelligence about Russian units that has allowed Ukrainians to target and kill many of the Russian generals who have died in action in the Ukraine war, according to senior American officials.” Second, The Times, following a report by NBC Newsand citing U.S. officials, reported that America has “provided intelligence that helped Ukrainian forces locate and strike” the Moskva, the flagship of Russia’s Black Sea fleet. This targeting assistance “contributed to the eventual sinking” of the Moskva by two Ukrainian cruise missiles.

    As a journalist, I love a good leak story, and the reporters who broke those stories did powerful digging. At the same time, from everything I have been able to glean from senior U.S. officials, who spoke to me on condition of anonymity, the leaks were not part of any thought-out strategy, and President Biden was livid about them. I’m told that he called the director of national intelligence, the director of the C.I.A. and the secretary of defense to make clear in the strongest and most colorful language that this kind of loose talk is reckless and has got to stop immediately — before we end up in an unintended war with Russia.

    The staggering takeaway from these leaks is that they suggest we are no longer in an indirect war with Russia but rather edging toward a direct war — and no one has prepared the American people or Congress for that.
    Vladimir Putin surely has no illusions about how much the U.S. and NATO are arming Ukraine with material and intelligence, but when American officials start to brag in public about playing a role in killing Russian generals and sinking the Russian flagship, killing many sailors, we could be creating an opening for Putin to respond in ways that could dangerously widen this conflict — and drag the U.S. in deeper than it wants to be.

    It is doubly dangerous, senior U.S. officials say, because it is increasingly obvious to them that Putin’s behavior is not as predictable as it has been in the past. And Putin is running out of options for some kind of face-saving success on the ground — or even a face-saving off ramp.

    It is hard to exaggerate what a catastrophe this war has been for Putin so far. Indeed, Biden pointed out to his team that Putin was trying to push back on NATO expansion, and he’s ended up laying the groundwork for the expansion of NATO. Both Finland and Sweden are now taking steps toward joining an alliance they’ve stayed out of for seven decades.

    But that is why U.S. officials are quite concerned what Putin might do or announce at the Victory Day celebration in Moscow on Monday, which marks the anniversary of the Soviet Union’s defeat of Nazi Germany. It is traditionally a day of military parades and celebration of the prowess of the Russian Army. Putin could mobilize even more soldiers, make some other provocation or do nothing at all. But no one knows.
    Alas, we have to be alive to the fact that it’s not only the Russians who would like to involve us more deeply.Have no illusions, President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine has been trying to do the same thing from the start — to make Ukraine an immediate member of NATO or get Washington to forge a bilateral security pact with Kyiv. I am in awe of Zelensky’s heroism and leadership. If I were him, I’d be trying to get the U.S. as enmeshed on my side as he is.

    But I’m an American citizen, and I want us to be careful. Ukraine was, and still is, a country marbled with corruption. That doesn’t mean we should not be helping it. I am glad we are. I insist we do. But my sense is that the Biden team is walking much more of a tightrope with Zelensky than it would appear to the eye — wanting to do everything possible to make sure he wins this war but doing so in a way that still keeps some distance between us and Ukraine’s leadership. That’s so Kyiv is not calling the shots and so we’ll not be embarrassed by messy Ukrainian politics in the war’s aftermath.

    The view of Biden and his team, according to my reporting, is that America needs to help Ukraine restore its sovereignty and beat the Russians back — but not let Ukraine turn itself into an American protectorate on the border of Russia. We need to stay laser-focused on what is our national interest and not stray in ways that lead to exposures and risks we don’t want.

    One thing I know about Biden — with whom I traveled to Afghanistan in 2002 when he was a senator heading the Foreign Relations Committee — is that he is not easily romanced by world leaders. He has dealt with too many of them over his career. He’s got a pretty good sense of where U.S. interests stop and start. Ask the Afghans.

    So where are we now? Putin’s Plan A — taking Kyiv and installing his own leader — has failed. And his Plan B — trying just to take full control of Ukraine’s old industrial heartland, known as the Donbas, which is largely Russian speaking — is still in doubt. Putin’s freshly reinforced ground forces have made some progress, but it’s still limited. It is springtime in the Donbas, meaning the ground is still sometimes muddy and wet, so Russian armor still has to stay on roads and highways in many areas, making them vulnerable.

    As America navigates Ukraine and Russia and tries to avoid being ensnared, one bright spot in the effort to avoid a wider war is the administration’s success at keeping China from providing military aid to Russia. This has been huge.

    After all, it was just Feb. 4 when China’s president, Xi Jinping, hosted Putin at the opening of the 2022 Winter Olympic Games, where they unveiled all sorts of trade and energy agreements, and then issued a joint declaration asserting that the friendship between Russia and China “has no limits.

    That was then. After the war started, Biden personally explained to Xi in a lengthy phone call that China’s economic future rests on access to the American and European markets — its two largest trading partners — and should China provide military aid to Putin, it would have very negative consequences for China’s trade with both markets. Xi did the math and has been deterred from helping Russia in any military way, which has also made Putin weaker. The Western restrictions on shipping microchips to Russia have begun to really hobble some of his factories — and China has not stepped in, so far.

    My bottom line echoes my top line — and I can’t underscore it enough: We need to stick as tightly as possible to our original limited and clearly defined aim of helping Ukraine expel Russian forces as much as possible or negotiate for their withdrawal whenever Ukraine’s leaders feel the time is right.

    But we are dealing with some incredibly unstable elements, particularly a politically wounded Putin. Boasting about killing his generals and sinking his ships, or falling in love with Ukraine in ways that will get us enmeshed there forever, is the height of folly.

    nytimes.com
     
    #7533 Deckard, May 8, 2022
    Last edited: May 8, 2022
    dmoneybangbang, B-Bob, Blatz and 6 others like this.
  14. AroundTheWorld

    AroundTheWorld Insufferable 98er
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2000
    Messages:
    70,041
    Likes Received:
    47,747
  15. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    37,717
    Likes Received:
    18,919
    Thanks for sharing Deck, this is an awesome perspective and gives a lot of valuable insight. I think it is a very dangerous situation and we are indeed on a tightrope, but glad Biden has taken the approach he has so far. He's done an excellent job here.
     
    Deckard, Space Ghost and No Worries like this.
  16. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    37,717
    Likes Received:
    18,919
    I think there needs to be some kind of way out of this mess for Putin. A way for him to have his victory even in defeat. He has to make concessions but he also has to be able to save face.

    One option is that he withdraws unconditionally from Ukraine include Crimea, and in exchange, Ukraine makes a declaration of neutrality and all sanctions from Russia are removed.
     
  17. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 1999
    Messages:
    15,394
    Likes Received:
    6,419
    As long as Putin can sell his energy at market prices, he can continue this war as long as possible. If he can continue to get Europe to buy his energy in rubles and China continues trade, he is fine. I suspect this will draw down by the end of summer at the current rate.

    The narratives on this war have been terrible. First, it was we must stop Putin from invading Ukraine and the rest of Europe. The new narrative being driven is Putin is a clown and will not be able to sustain this war. I stated from the beginning this war was started to put max pain on the European economy.
     
  18. No Worries

    No Worries Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 1999
    Messages:
    30,491
    Likes Received:
    17,493
    Putin will run of tanks before he runs out of money.
     
  19. No Worries

    No Worries Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 1999
    Messages:
    30,491
    Likes Received:
    17,493
    The rest of Europe sees the Ukraine invasion as their 911.
     
  20. thegary

    thegary Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2002
    Messages:
    10,352
    Likes Received:
    2,358
    There is no way for Putin to win. The only goal should be to minimize the losses to the rest of the world. Best result for everyone is regime change.
     

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now