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[The Week] There's a way to bring down gas prices, but you won't like it

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Os Trigonum, Mar 11, 2022.

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  1. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Member
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    https://theweek.com/russo-ukrainian-war/1011220/theres-a-way-to-bring-down-gas-prices-but-you-wont-l

    There's a way to bring down gas prices, but you won't like it
    JOEL MATHIS
    1:36 PM
    [​IMG]
    Illustrated | iStock​
    A modest suggestion to deal with rising gas prices: Let's bring back the 55-mph speed limit.

    Prices were already on the upswing before Vladimir Putin's invasion of Ukraine, thanks largely to a slow ramp-up in oil production following the pandemic-driven collapse in demand. Now the cost is going to go up even more, driven higher by sanctions on Russia's oil and gas industries. We're getting a real-time lesson in the laws of supply and demand.

    For the most part, the solutions on offer are supply-driven. The Biden Administration has approached the oil-rich nations of Saudi Arabia and Venezuela — falteringly — about loosening their production spigots. The White House has also ordered that 60 million barrels be released from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve. Republicans, meanwhile, want the United States to ramp up domestic oil production. It's "drill, baby, drill" all over again, but it's not clear that any of these moves will do much to meaningfully bring down prices.

    Meanwhile, nobody in government is really talking about how to use less gasoline.

    One quick-and-obvious way we can do that is to make everybody drive slower. We've done it before. Congress passed the national maximum speed limit in 1973, not as a way to save lives in traffic accidents, but to reduce gasoline use during the Arab oil embargo. The limit lasted 22 years, and during that time the country reduced its consumption by 167,000 barrels a day, and as much as an overall savings of 3 percent of annual fuel consumption. (It also inspired Sammy Hagar's best song.) Yes, it made long car trips interminable — I say this as a child of the era who spent way too many hours trapped in a crowded backseat with my sisters — but it also saved a lot of gas. We could do it again.

    Of course, the big problem with this proposal is that most Americans will despise it. We love our speed. One 2020 survey suggested that nearly half of us have driven 15 mph over the existing speed limits, which range from 65 mph and up in most states. Drivers in a country that produced the Fast & Furious films won't be inclined to toddle down the highway at a moderate speed, no matter how much it saves them. The last few years have proven we're not so great at making small individual sacrifices — like, say, masking up — for the greater good, and our politicians don't seem much inclined to ask it of us.

    But the benefits of a lower speed limit would be undeniable. Russia would have less leverage over the rest of the world, and the White House wouldn't have to go hat in hand to monarchies whose rule is propped up by their petroleum reserves. It would be good for the climate, and reduce the number of traffic deaths.

    Let's face it, it's easier to achieve energy independence if you don't use so much energy.​
     
    #1 Os Trigonum, Mar 11, 2022
  2. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Member

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    Or we could make car manufacturers optimize gas millage for 65 instead of 50 (which never made sense in the first place). Most cars if you throw in an extra gear could get great milage at 65
     
    #2 Sweet Lou 4 2, Mar 11, 2022
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  3. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Member

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    Will Teslas be allowed to go 75?
     
    #3 Space Ghost, Mar 11, 2022
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  4. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Member
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    it would be fantastic to have Tesla-only high speed lanes, amirite @tinman
     
    #4 Os Trigonum, Mar 11, 2022
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  5. Commodore

    Commodore Member

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    The left's solution is always forced deprivation
     
    #5 Commodore, Mar 12, 2022
  6. Reeko

    Reeko Member

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    I find it hard to maintain the speed limit on the freeway…I naturally go at least 75

    I’m a defensive driver, but impatient at the same time

    people who want to drive slow need to stay out of the leftmost lanes
     
    #6 Reeko, Mar 12, 2022
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  7. bobrek

    bobrek Politics belong in the D & D

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    Nixon signed the original 55 MPH law. Ford extended it. A Republican Senator tried to bring it back in 2008.
     
    #7 bobrek, Mar 12, 2022
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2022
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  8. Air Langhi

    Air Langhi Contributing Member

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    D = .5 * Cd * r * V^2 * A

    It is going to be hard to overcome physics. From 55 to 65 drag increases 40%. Its why EVs range drops a bunch the faster you go.
     
    #8 Air Langhi, Mar 12, 2022
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  9. peleincubus

    peleincubus Member

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    Still the lefts fault. Because
     
    #9 peleincubus, Mar 12, 2022
  10. ElPigto

    ElPigto Member
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    Not really sure speed is our problem lol. Most people commute in the City, which means stop and go traffic, which means much much much less efficiency. Driving long distances at a constant 65-75 mph is actually pretty efficient assuming you aren't constantly braking and revving up the engine because you are an aggressive driver.

    So this proposal sucks @Os Trigonum.
     
    #10 ElPigto, Mar 12, 2022
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  11. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

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    Sure we can do much much more to conserve. In addition to driving slower we can reduce the overall number of trips we take. Use public transportation, walk and bike more. I know for myself following COVID I'm still mostly working at home. Have cut down the number of meetings that I go to.
     
    #11 rocketsjudoka, Mar 12, 2022
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  12. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Member
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    years ago I bought a diesel truck on eBay motors but had to fly to Columbus Georgia to pick it up before driving it back to upstate NY. Was curious about its gas mileage, so made a conscious attempt to drive 55mph for 300-400 miles on I-81. I was the slowest vehicle on the road by far, but I managed to eke out about 23 mph by driving 55. Later with regular driving (65-75 mph generally) I could maybe get 18-19 mph. So that conscious decision to keep it to 55 really hammered home the truth of energy conservation if we decided policy-wise to lower speed limits.

    The practical problem of course is that nobody (either then or now) would keep to that speed limit. There aren't enough state troopers in the world to enforce such a speed limit, and it was probably less safe on the highways with a 55mph limit back then when folks had to figure out ways to avoid speed traps, and weave in and out of slower moving pockets of traffic, then it is now when people can simply choose how fast they want to drive and not worry about speed traps and speeding violations.

    but of course the correct answer is . . . ELECTRIC VEHICLES. ;)
     
    #12 Os Trigonum, Mar 12, 2022
  13. Buck Turgidson

    Buck Turgidson Member

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    To be fair, in his world Nixon and Ford are part of the left.
     
    #13 Buck Turgidson, Mar 12, 2022
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  14. Roc Paint

    Roc Paint Member

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    It’s called walking
     
    #14 Roc Paint, Mar 12, 2022
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  15. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Member

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    Actually it's not. While your calculation is correct your interpretation is incomplete. Yes, increasing from 55 to 65 is a 39% increase in drag, but increasing from 10 mph to 20 mph is a 400% increase in drag yet we don't think driving at 10mph is ideal. Point is the picture is more complicated than that one equation.

    You lose about 8% in fuel economy going from 55 mph to 65 mph. It's not just drag though (drag does limit a cars fuel economy as you go faster but it really starts to kick in above 65 which is why I chose 65). The bigger reason is the way your car's gears at set up.

    Believe it or not, the reason your car gets its best fuel milage at 50 is less to do with physics and far more to do with marketing. You see all those fuel economy numbers on the stickers of new cars and you see in ads comes from the EPA - and the EPA calculates highway mileage at 50 mph! So guess what, engineers make sure their cars get the best mileage at 50mph, but don't care about speeds beyond that because it doesn't help them sell more cars. Everyone compares at 50mph - not that it's because it's the optimal speed, but because it's just the number the EPA tests at.

    That's why more cars reach their last gear around that number to get the maximum fuel efficiency. Adding more gears would increase the cost of the car and would provide no benefit from a marketing standpoint. This is the reason why. It's not physics that is the issue, it's marketing.

    The biggest loss in fuel economy going from 55 to 65 isn't drag (although it is part of it), it's RPM's. Higher RPM's generate a lot more friction,and while you may get more power - you really don't need as much power if you are cruising on a highway at 65 on a flat road - so you'd save a ton more fuel by traveling at a lower rpm (higher gear) even though the car would output less power (which means more fuel economy since energy used is power x time). Less power and less friction far over comes the increased drag at those speeds. Now, that isn't true going from say 75 to 100.



    EDIT: Also keep in mind that EVs don't have gears so to speak, so they are perfectly optimized already from a friction / power output standpoint and that's why you see drag having so much impact on their range.
     
    #15 Sweet Lou 4 2, Mar 12, 2022
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2022
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  16. MojoMan

    MojoMan Member

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    [​IMG]
     
    #16 MojoMan, Mar 12, 2022
  17. Exiled

    Exiled Member

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    Per my own experiment and rough estimates on a vehicle \
    Range per tank : 300miles
    2.4" added ground clearance(22%) = 270 miles
    0.738 to 0.659 6th gear swap (10%) = ~287 miles


    Per my accountant :Any individual who can switch from salary base to service base (employee to contractor) , can divert most of fuel charges to business expense regardless of occupation.

    this practice seems to offset any serious attempt to rationalize fuel consumption
     
    #17 Exiled, Mar 12, 2022
  18. tinman

    tinman 999999999
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    Breh
    Nobody is driving 65 on I-10
    It’s 75 unless you want to passed up by some Toyota RAV4s
     
    #18 tinman, Mar 12, 2022
  19. Reeko

    Reeko Member

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    they are on 59…many even slower than that
     
    #19 Reeko, Mar 12, 2022
  20. Rileydog

    Rileydog Member

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    and the Republican solution is always me and only me: guns, no masks, gas guzzlers, coal. If I screw over my neighbor, too bad. I don’t have to give a crap about others, or the future. Me. Me. Me. Any rule, any law that is good for society but curtails my absolute right to do whatever the hell I want, no, hard pass.

    and no, I’m not advocating 55MPH.

    I’m just saying too many republicans are reflectively about me, and reflectively say stupid sh-t like ^^^
     
    #20 Rileydog, Mar 12, 2022
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