See my last post in the "Trump for president in 2024" thread. It was actually Putin who was just bent over by Trump. Trump was playing with his balls like he was strumming a fiddle.
Recall the US sent in the Neo Nazis to control Ukraine. US bombed the maternity hospital as a false flag op. If Chem Weapons are used in Ukraine, it will no doubt be the US’s fault. It is almost like no matter the US does or does not do Putin will blame all bad outcomes on the US. The money move might be to call Putin’s bluff.
In order to be an official Nazi, don't you have to be from Germany? lol The idea that Nazis are anywhere is hilarious. There are wanna-be Nazis for sure. But, the Nazi Party was dissolved in 1945 at the end of the war. But, neo-Nazi is an organization similar to the German Nazi party...like that's the same thing. The neo-Nazis didn't kill all the Jews and cause WWII. What have the neo-Nazis done? I guess they're all in Ukraine causing havoc.
I agree that given the risk and uncertainty about what might happen further this is the best course of action. If we are concerned about Moldova now is the time to get them military aid. For Finland and Sweden while not NATO members we can certainly give them more aid. Sweden as a member of the EU could engage in a separate European security partnership apart from NATO.
If he escalates, then we have to escalate. And we need to do our best to make sure he is aware of that. As long the United States is obviously unwilling to act, Putin will have no fear of continuing. Ukraine has specifically asked for aid they need. Putin doesn't believe we'll give it to them. We need to change the balance and show that we are willing. To just allow him to flex and cower in response won't help.
I'm not suggesting it will be easy. Russia's warplanes still aren't equal to the amount of the US and its allies. If Russia is willing to mobilize all of them to the Ukrainian conflict then they will be vulnerable on other fronts.
That's the point though. If it escalates. Russia hits NATO bases, we hit Russian bases, Russia expands the conflict to other parts of Europe or the World, we expand the conflict to other parts of the Europe or the World, Russia goes unconventional we go unconventional.. and so on. No one knows where this will end. The gamble you're making is that Putin will just back down once we show start hitting him. He might but how certain are you or anyone that he might not? There's all this talk that Putin's generals might not obey commands to go nuclear or they might just overthrow them. I would like to think that but I have no idea and I don't think many have any idea how likely that is. Do you know what the Russian command structure is? Do you know the psychological makeup is of Russia's top officers?
You are correct. We don't know what his reaction will be. Putin might continue to spread his war. But if we don't make a stand now, and we finally make one later after the next nation falls to Russia or the one after that, we still won't know how far he's willing to escalate. The only difference is that Ukraine and however many other nations will already be taken by Russia. Russia will control all of that and we still won't know how Putin will react when we FINALLY do make a stand. The only real difference is that we would have allowed the people of those nations to be taken over,but we will face the exact same uncertainty we do now.
I will say it again we already have a bright line which is NATO. I feel bad for Ukraine and other non NATO countries but that is the point of being a NATO member. At this point for us to engage military with Russia that is a war of choice and not of necessity. Honestly I'm surprised at how many here who frequently wrote about the damage done to this country over decades of a war of choice against enemies who didn't have the possibility of ending life as we know are pressing now for us to go fight another.
I'm going to lay out a scenario to explain again how even without the threat of nuclear weapons we could get drawn into a deeper and much longer conflict with Russia if we directly intervene militarily. This is speculative and we're all speculating anyway what might happen but given Russia history and what we've seen a lot of in the former USSR I don't think it is wildly off base. NATO agrees to establish a no-fly zone. Due to technical superiority the no-Fly-Zone works and the Ukrainians taking advantage of essentially having air superiority pushes the Russian military out of most of Ukraine. The Russians though continue to launch missiles and other attacks from areas bordering Ukraine including Belarus. They also continue to arm ethnic Russian separatists in Donbas. The Ukrainians launch a bloody offensive against Donbas. Since Ukraine still has NATO air cover they crush the Donbas and given the bitterness of the Russian invasion of the rest of Ukraine it turns into a blood bath. Putin now goes on a rhetorical offensive rallying Russia around Donbas. As such they continue to fire missiles into Ukraine, launch border raids and all sorts of attacks. In the meantime what's left of Donbas engages in assymetric warfare with Ukraine including terrorism. Ukraine threatens to take out Russian launchers and bases over the border. They also ask for NATO troops to help secure Donbas notably the border to keep Russian supplies from going to Donbas and to prevent another Russian invasion over Donbas. Fearing that not only could Russia launch another invasion into Ukraine but Ukraine might decide to invade parts of Russia themselves NATO and the international community agrees to sending "peacekeepers" to Donbas and other border regions. An embittered Russia continues to be a threat to Ukraine for years and NATO is now committed to both protecting Ukraine and preventing Ukraine from escalating. In the meantime Russia and ethnic Russians launch assymetric attacks against Ukraine and NATO forces in the regions as they are not seen as neutral peacekeepers but actual combatants. Even if this doesn't escalate into all out war we could find ourselves bogged down in yet another quagmire for decades. And just to add this is one of the better scenarios that doesn't result in all out war between us and Russia.
Think about this - if you even manage to shoot down one Russian warplane a day, it will take 3 years to take out 1/4 of their airforce. In that time, Putin will continue to have bombard the cities unabated killing more civilians and you'll have lost likely at least as many American warplanes. Think about the scenarios you send a squadron of 20 jets to establish air superiority over an eastern Ukrainian city. 30 Russian migs are waiting along with 10 SAM batteries firing at your planes. Who is going to take more loses? In other words, even with great numbers the US may still fail. It will take a long time. And you are now in open warfare with Russia. Why on earth would you advocate such a route?
