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Ukraine

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by NewRoxFan, Nov 25, 2018.

  1. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    (Part Three)

    2019
    In April, comedian and actor Volodymyr Zelenskyy is elected president in a landslide rebuke of Poroshenko and the status quo, which includes a stagnating economy and the conflict with Russia.

    During his campaign, Zelenskyy vowed to make peace with Russia and end the war in the Donbas.

    His early efforts to reach a solution to the violence are slowed by U.S. President Donald Trump, who briefly blocks U.S. military aid to Ukraine and suggests to Zelenskyy that he should instead work with Putin to resolve the crisis.

    In a phone call with Trump in July 2019, Zelenskyy requests a visit to the White House to meet with Trump about U.S. backing of Ukraine's efforts to push off Russia. Trump asks Zelenskyy for "a favor": an investigation into energy company Burisma and the Bidens. A White House whistleblower complains, leading to Trump's first impeachment in December 2019.

    Several U.S. officials later testify that Zelenskyy was close to announcing such an investigation, though he ultimately demurs, saying Ukrainians are "tired" of Burisma.

    2021: The crisis escalates
    April
    Russia sends about 100,000 troops to Ukraine's borders, ostensibly for military exercises. Although few analysts believe an invasion is imminent, Zelenskyy urges NATO leadership to put Ukraine on a timeline for membership. Later that month, Russia says it will withdraw the troops, but tens of thousands remain.

    August
    Two years after his entanglement with Trump, Zelenskyy visits the White House to meet with President Biden. Biden emphasizes that the U.S. is committed to "Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity in the face of Russian aggression" but repeats that Ukraine has not yet met the conditions necessary to join NATO.

    November
    Russia renews its troop presence near the Ukraine-Russia border, alarming U.S. intelligence officials, who travel to Brussels to brief NATO allies on the situation. "We're not sure exactly what Mr. Putin is up to, but these movements certainly have our attention," says U.S. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin.

    December
    Biden, speaking with Putin on a phone call, urges Russia not to invade Ukraine, warning of "real costs" if Russia does so.

    Putin issues a contentious set of security demands. Among them, he asks NATO to permanently bar Ukraine from membership and withdraw forces stationed in countries that joined the alliance after 1997, including Romania and Balkan countries. Putin also demands a written response from the U.S. and NATO.

    2022: Russia moves in
    January
    Leaders and diplomats from the U.S., Russia and European countries meet repeatedly to avert a crisis. In early January, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov tells U.S. officials that Russia has no plans to invade Ukraine.

    The State Department orders the families of embassy staff to leave Ukraine on Jan. 23. NATO places forces on standby the next day, including the U.S. ordering 8,500 troops in the United States to be ready to deploy.

    Representatives from the U.S. and NATO deliver their written responses to Putin's demands on Jan. 26. In the responses, officials say they cannot bar Ukraine from joining NATO, but they signal a willingness to negotiate over smaller issues like arms control.

    February
    Diplomatic efforts pick up pace across Europe. French President Emmanuel Macron and German Chancellor Olaf Scholz travel between Moscow and Kyiv. Biden orders the movement of 1,000 U.S. troops from Germany to Romania and the deployment of 2,000 additional U.S. troops to Poland and Germany.

    Russia and Belarus begin joint military exercises on Feb. 10, with some 30,000 Russian troops stationed in the country along Ukraine's northern border.

    The U.S. and the U.K. urge their citizens to leave Ukraine on Feb. 11. Biden announces the deployment of another 2,000 troops from the U.S. to Poland.

    In mid-February, the fighting escalates between Russian-backed separatists and Ukrainian forces in the two eastern regions of Donetsk and Luhansk. Separatist leaders call for evacuations. "In our view, what is happening in Donbas today is, in fact, genocide," says Putin on Feb. 15 — a false claim that Western officials say Putin is using to create a pretext for an invasion.

    Russia continues to build its troop presence on its border with Ukraine. Estimates range from 150,000 to 190,000 troops. U.S. officials, including Biden, increase the urgency of their warnings, saying that Russia has decided to invade.

    On Feb. 21, Putin formally recognizes the independence of the Donetsk People's Republic and the Luhansk People's Republic — including territory claimed by separatists but controlled by the Ukrainian armed forces. He orders Russia's military to deploy troops there under the guise of a "peacekeeping" mission.

    In response, Biden declares the move "the beginning of a Russian invasion." Together, the U.S., the U.K. and the European Union enact a broad set of sanctions targeting Russian banks and oligarchs.

    On Feb. 24, Russian forces launch a devastating assault on Ukrainian territory — the largest such military operation in Europe since the end of World War II. Missiles rain down on Ukraine's cities and columns of Russian troops from neighboring Belarus and from Russian-held Crimea reportedly begin streaming into the countryside. Ukrainian forces reportedly try to hold back the Russian advance on several fronts.

    https://www.npr.org/2022/02/12/1080205477/history-ukraine-russia
     
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  2. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Member

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    Swift seems like a Swift punch to the jaw (pun intended). Could be a matter of time to circumvent but not sure if Russian people can tolerate that period

    https://www.reuters.com/markets/eur...-around-swift-ban-with-high-costs-2022-03-07/
     
  3. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Member

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  4. AleksandarN

    AleksandarN Member

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    Campare this to trump and Biden. This is what a good guy and a great leader sounds like.

     
  5. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Member

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    This is exactly what an actor sounds like who got the part of General Patton.

    I think he is playing the part of his lifetime.
     
  6. AleksandarN

    AleksandarN Member

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    I think he loves his country and his people. Why else would he risk his life by staying in the capital? He is a great orator like Obama. Which is why so many people want to fight . Why the morale is high even against the odds. He is a Great War time leader
     
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  7. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Member

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    I think it is too early to judge honestly. I have to read up on Euromaidan as quickly as possible.

    (Could you possibly compare it to West Germany and East Germany/West Ukraine - East Separatist Ukraine)

    I am not sure why Ukraine wants to cut ties with Russia completely, prosper together would be my way.

    Putin is old, he won't be there forever, just wait it out.

    I think the modern way is to boost economy and not stand there like Braveheart.
     
    #4847 daywalker02, Mar 9, 2022
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2022
  8. AleksandarN

    AleksandarN Member

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    Really? Is that you Putin? What are you doing on the D & D board?
     
  9. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Member

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    Maybe you are of Ukrainian descent, then tell us more.....

    Just an opinion, those two countries were brother countries, independent of their type of governments.

    Sharing similar religious beliefs, culture etc........so I cannot imagine a clean cut from Russia to be honest.

    The reason why Russia is still so big on keeping Ukraine close to its bosom.
     
  10. AleksandarN

    AleksandarN Member

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    Nope not Ukrainian descent. But I agree on one part not all Russians are evil like Putin is.

     
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  11. dobro1229

    dobro1229 Member

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    Zelensky has been about as accommodating as you can be to a guy who trying to murder you and your family.

    He also was a star on Russian TV prior and is one of those Russian speaking Ukrainians that Putin talked about liberating so based on the propaganda Russians are getting he fits the bill as someone they’d think Russia is helping. I’m not too worried about Russians after the war think about Zelensky. If they eventually get the truth about Putin then that is more important.

    Ukraine/Zelensky wants to be part of the EU because he wants them to be a thriving democracy with Euro tourism and history. It has little to do with Russia and everything to do with Europe. Being able to trade on the Euro, having people freely travel in between, etc. Its what his people want and what anyone would want in Europe. Not to be some isolated puppet of a relic of the Soviet past that looks like East Berlin during the Cold War which is what older Ukrainians remember about being a sister country under Russia.
     
  12. dobro1229

    dobro1229 Member

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    Not all Russians are evil yes, but just like the American right, there’s a problem even in a potential post Putin Russia of deprogramming the propaganda they’ve been fed for years.

    If the world is fortunate enough to rid itself of the cancer that is Vladimir Putin, the first thing ill want to hear from the would be leader taking over is if they’ll allow a free press and western media like the BBC and CNN world to be broadcast. If they’ll create a firewall between them and RT and Sputnik. If it’s more of the same in terms of propaganda then I fear we’ll see more of the same in terms of conflict.

    And there’s always going to be a right wing party over there that has a powerful message of grievance like our Republican Party because the US, and European Liberals will be an easy villain to cast when they have decades of hardships on their economy as a result of the war in Ukraine. There’s going to be a Hitler type in Russia who earns a following doing what he did and pretty much what Trump did speaking to the grievances of those aggrieved older blue collar people who are looking for someone that doesn’t look like them to blame for their standard of living decreasing.

    So either way, Russia is going to be an issue for the world just as the aggrieved right wing parties are in the US and Europe right now. The best case is a strong counter balance with the ability to check impulses to turn back to a right wing strong man again and again.

    First things first though… Putin has to go. Nevalny would be a good person to be elected first in Russia because his views actually are pretty popular on the conservative side of Russias political leanings believe it or not, and so he’d be a good transitional leader and has a good story to tell all Russians about what they’ve been through and where they go from here. That’s why Putin is afraid of him the most.
     
    #4852 dobro1229, Mar 9, 2022
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2022
  13. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Member

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    Being in the EU is different than being in the NATO or in both, I have been in Austria, neutrality works better.

    I have no doubt a progressive Russia would understand, I am thinking beyond Putin.
    There is no doubt that Russia should modernize as well.

    But ask any country, joining EU takes a lot of planning, and couple years tryout.

    I have no problem with actors being presidents but people should know that speeches are their forte, and he could be in any bunker recording.
     
  14. dobro1229

    dobro1229 Member

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    Well bunker speeches or not it’s working. He’s not just giving speeches too. The messaging strategy has pushed a war weary US into sending hundreds of millions in weapons and has been steadfast in not giving up in his messaging strategy to get air support. He knows he won’t get a no fly zone but his strategy and continual pursuit of that level of support has the west and Europe trying like hell to offer some rather unthinkable support they wouldn’t have considered weeks ago.

    Also navigating the cluster F that was the Trump extortion proved a lot to me. That what an extremely tough situation to navigate and he did well.

    I’ve seen no reason to say he has anything left to prove at this point. I’m just two years he’s faced more crises than most European leaders face in 40 years in governing. Could he make a bad move in the future… yes, but imo he has nothing left to prove.
     
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  15. AleksandarN

    AleksandarN Member

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    That can’t be good.



     
  16. HardenVolumeOne

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    joe Biden is a segregationist at heart, he is putting policies to release mentally I’ll black men onto the streets and then pinning murders of Asian or white women on them. He is deranged
     
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  17. FranchiseBlade

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    Technically, sure. But the reality is the human at the campsite is the invader, and the bear is probably slightly more predictable.

    Putin talking about plane transfers or military equipment transfers is likely bluffing, depending on what equipment is delivered.
     
  18. hooroo

    hooroo Member

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    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...hildren-Russian-ceasefire-shelling-Irpin.html
     
  19. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

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    And Putin sees Ukraine as his territory. That is the point of the war. But this the point. How much is Putin actually bluffing? I will say again all the moves are a gamble where the end result possibly the end of civilization.
     
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  20. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

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    I saw this from Channel News Asia but haven't seen other news sources confirming this so take it with a grain of salt. If this is true that Zelensky is not just willing to give up NATO membership but also the separatists regions Ukraine might be even more dire than most people think.
    https://www.channelnewsasia.com/world/russia-says-some-progress-made-talks-ukraine-2552076

    In nod to Russia, Ukraine says no longer insisting on NATO membership

    WASHINGTON: President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said he is no longer pressing for NATO membership for Ukraine, a delicate issue that was one of Russia's stated reasons for invading its pro-Western neighbour.

    In another apparent nod aimed at placating Moscow, Zelenskyy said he is open to "compromise" on the status of two breakaway pro-Russian territories that President Vladimir Putin recognised as independent just before unleashing the invasion on Feb 24.

    "I have cooled down regarding this question a long time ago after we understood that ... NATO is not prepared to accept Ukraine," Zelenskyy said in an interview aired Monday night on ABC News.

    "The alliance is afraid of controversial things, and confrontation with Russia," the president added.

    Referring to NATO membership, Zelenskyy said through an interpreter that he does not want to be president of a "country which is begging something on its knees".

    Russia has said it does not want neighbouring Ukraine to join NATO, the transatlantic alliance created at the start of the Cold War to protect Europe from the Soviet Union.

    In more recent years the alliance has expanded further and further east to take in former Soviet bloc countries, infuriating the Kremlin.

    Russia sees NATO enlargement as a threat, as it does the military posture of these new Western allies on its doorstep.

    Shortly before he shocked the world by ordering the invasion of Ukraine, Putin recognised as independent two separatist pro-Russian "republics" in eastern Ukraine - Donetsk and Luhansk - that have been at war with Kyiv since 2014.

    Putin now wants Ukraine, too, to recognise them as sovereign and independent.

    When ABC asked him about this Russian demand, Zelenskyy said he was open to dialogue.

    "I'm talking about security guarantees," he said.

    He said these two regions "have not been recognised by anyone but Russia, these pseudo republics. But we can discuss and find the compromise on how these territories will live on".

    "What is important to me is how the people in those territories are going to live who want to be part of Ukraine, who in Ukraine will say that they want to have them in," Zelenskyy said.

    "So the question is more difficult than simply acknowledging them," the president said.

    "This is another ultimatum and we are not prepared for ultimatums. What needs to be done is for President Putin to start talking, start the dialogue instead of living in the informational bubble without oxygen."
     
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