1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Ukraine

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by NewRoxFan, Nov 25, 2018.

  1. dobro1229

    dobro1229 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2010
    Messages:
    25,675
    Likes Received:
    22,381
    Important incoming talking point circulating on right wing media right now (Tiktok, facebook etc.) is an anti-German sentiment that the US made a mistake in not severing ties with Germany. I literally heard last night from a friend that the US should have "Taken out" Germany in the past couple years for which I did a double take and said "Are you saying the United State should have attacked another NATO ally?" for which he said yes, and then I just shook my head, and made a drink.

    Can anyone articulate to me what the hell this theory is, and what they could possibly be talking about with Germany as if their a secret enemy or something??
     
  2. Jugdish

    Jugdish Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2006
    Messages:
    9,066
    Likes Received:
    9,567

    [​IMG]
     
    cheke64 and justtxyank like this.
  3. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 1999
    Messages:
    18,093
    Likes Received:
    8,537
    Dont be daft. Germany and Italy stated they would not support the sanctions as they need Russian energy. As I said, Putin knows this. This is why he chose this time to escalate the situation. Biden didnt do anything. Americans do not sit on the high chair and control the world like they used to.

    You're meandering across multiple points of discussions. I simply stated Trump brought the discussion front stage, which nobody, included Trump, accomplished anything. There was strong sentiment, as youre displaying here, that domestic manufacturing is irrelevant. COVID of course proved that incorrect.
     
  4. Jugdish

    Jugdish Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2006
    Messages:
    9,066
    Likes Received:
    9,567
    Germany is the most powerful actor in the EU and is attempting to control all of Europe, as they do. Lots of Brexiters will say this.
     
    FranchiseBlade likes this.
  5. Major

    Major Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 1999
    Messages:
    41,681
    Likes Received:
    16,205
    Depends on what you think his goals are. He's a megalomaniac, and by that standard:

    1. He wants to be rich. He's one of the richest people in the world.
    2. He wants to be relevant. He has made Russia the center of the world's attention.
    3. He wants to be powerful. He's managed to become permanent leader of a Russia that he took over as a fledgling democracy.
    4. He wants to be feared. With the Ukraine invasion, everyone will take any future threats seriously instead of assuming he's bluffing.

    He's an evil murderous dictator. But he's also probably very successful by his own standards and certainly by murderous dictator standards. And yes, nukes are a big part of it, which is why Iran and North Korea and other places with murderous evil leadership wanted them so badly.
     
    ElPigto, FranchiseBlade and B-Bob like this.
  6. MojoMan

    MojoMan Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2009
    Messages:
    7,746
    Likes Received:
    2,153
    Russia's primary goals here appear to be:

    1. Keep Ukraine out of NATO and under some significant degree of Russian influence.
    2. Maintain clear security for Russian gas pipeline assets, such that those exports are not interrupted, and are not interfered with either by foreign influences, or Ukrainian national politics.
    3. Keep NATO short and intermediate range missiles from being deployed in an overly threatening manner, especially not close to Russian national boundaries.

    The gesturing by the west towards inviting Ukraine to join NATO have been extremely provocative from a Russian perspective. Intolerably so, in fact, as demonstrated by the current invasion of Ukraine by Russia. No agreement will be reached between Russia and the West with regards to Ukraine without the West relinquishing this geopolitical/territorial ambition.

    The Ukrainian politicians are going to have to accept that it is part of their duty to make sure that Russian gas flows without interruption or any sort of political monkey business, or they are likely to find themselves in a very bad spot. They get paid well for their cooperation. This war is just a reminder that they need to just take the money. If the West wants to undermine the economic clout that the Russian realize from their gas exports, they will have to do that by providing gas to Europe from other sources, which means more drilling.

    The missile stuff has traditionally been negotiable. The Russians have not been very good about adhering to their side of these agreements, but practically speaking, nobody want to see a full front war between Russian and NATO, or a nuclear confrontation. This really does not need to be a problem and should be resolvable.

    This conflict was stimulated by the misguided arrogance of the Western elites, whose vision for a system of global domination and control is not shared by critical world leaders, at least with regards to who is going to be in charge of this monstrosity. Certainly both Xi Jinping and Vladimir Putin do not appear to be supportive of this Western elite dominated globalist view, and surely have different leaders in mind for their own conception of such a structure.

    This episode is just one more indication that the WEF crowd has failed in their current quest for global domination of mankind. No doubt they will not give up on this depraved and doomed agenda, but it is back to the drawing board as to how they are planning to get there.
     
    blue_eyed_devil and bumbum09 like this.
  7. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    39,181
    Likes Received:
    20,334
    Daft how so? Biden has the most to lose from severe sanctions given the inflation situation already.

    And you are changing your goal posts from bringing back manufacturing to just "talking about bringing it back"

    No one has ever stated domestic manufacturing is irrelevant. In reality, it was Trump who killed domestic manufacturing jobs by killing the TPP which would have opened up markets for US exports and bolstered domestic manufacturing without increasing imports since the industries were competitive with China's (and therefore leading to lower prices).

    I just think you are really sadly misinformed about a lot of issues, no disrespect intended to you personally.
     
  8. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2008
    Messages:
    21,022
    Likes Received:
    22,437
    Dude honestly I'll save you the trouble, I'm just totally against war. This war is not happening in the United States or in Russia. Russia is not attacking the United States. The United States is not attacking Russia. Russia is attacking Ukraine and the United States is helping Ukraine attack Russia inside all of Ukraine's assets/infrastructure, everything they've ever built. Whatever has to happen for war not to happen, I'm for that solution.

    What you’re reading to me is one aggressor’s description of why it had to go to war, a totally irrelevant biased anecdotal piece of evidence. I’ve read it, dozens of times for dozens of wars, no one is falling for this anymore.

    Just avoid war. It’s uncivilized behavior from all 3 sides. Total chimp like behavior and it’s disconnected from society.
     
  9. Jugdish

    Jugdish Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2006
    Messages:
    9,066
    Likes Received:
    9,567
    r/wowthanksimcured
     
    ElPigto and KingCheetah like this.
  10. Major

    Major Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 1999
    Messages:
    41,681
    Likes Received:
    16,205
    Bernie Sanders would disagree.
     
  11. justtxyank

    justtxyank Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2005
    Messages:
    42,881
    Likes Received:
    39,830
    Oh good idea.
     
  12. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2008
    Messages:
    21,022
    Likes Received:
    22,437
    99% of the countries do it 99% less than these two countries, no one else is under the illusion it’s impossible.

    Use the money to pay for all your education, infrastructure, homeless, unemployed. What the hell are defending here, I live a better life than you with better rewards for hard work better social ladder better opportunities, you should have this too. They can ignore what happens abroad and take care of you, don’t be fooled into believing there’s no other choice.
     
  13. justtxyank

    justtxyank Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2005
    Messages:
    42,881
    Likes Received:
    39,830
    Ukraine did not "go to war." Ukraine has been invaded. If they do not fight back, their country will not exist and many of them will be arrested and executed for being dissidents.

    I don't know you that well, but if a man broke into your house with a gun and said "I'm your wife's husband no, I'm your parents father now, watch as I rape her and beat them and then kill you" would your response be "That solution is fine, just no violence from me!"
     
  14. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2008
    Messages:
    21,022
    Likes Received:
    22,437
    Get one candidate largely representative of public interest into office. You guys don’t have any control, just some influence.

    Man this is not the only choice. Your safety will not change and you will be down a ton of money.
     
  15. edwardc

    edwardc Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2003
    Messages:
    10,502
    Likes Received:
    9,673
  16. justtxyank

    justtxyank Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2005
    Messages:
    42,881
    Likes Received:
    39,830
    The United States is not at war in Ukraine. Ukraine is defending itself against an invasion, likely in vain. Not sure what you think electing someone else would do. The United States (or NATO more broadly) disarming and declaring permanent neutrality would not establish a peaceful world.
     
  17. Major

    Major Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 1999
    Messages:
    41,681
    Likes Received:
    16,205
    LOL at watching Mojoman's full transformation into Russian puppet. In this entire screed, nowhere do you discuss what Ukrainians actually want. For someone that was so pro-Brexit so they could control their own future, you are super-big on Russia dictating what Ukraine should want and do.

    PS. It's not the West trying to get Ukraine to join NATO. It's Ukraine begging the west to allow it to join and the West repeatedly rejecting it. It's odd that you're so against the Western global order but seem very supportive of the Russian and Chinese global orders.
     
  18. B-Bob

    B-Bob "94-year-old self-described dreamer"
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2002
    Messages:
    35,975
    Likes Received:
    36,809
    Yeah, was thinking of (less extreme) analogy when some pro-Russian posters accuse the US of provoking the situation.

    You're on a playground. You see three bullies surround a small kid and start pounding their fists. One of the bullies puts on brass knuckles.

    You: Um, hey everybody pay attention. Those bullies might hurt that kid. Let's discourage them from hurting that kid.
    Complete Idiot: Quit provoking them!!
     
  19. FranchiseBlade

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    51,781
    Likes Received:
    20,438
    Except Germany has already shown a willingness to sacrifice with their halt to the Nord Stream 2 Pipeline. They have shown they are willing to put their energy needs off for a little bit. It will be up to the allies to help all the nations that use Russia's fuel.
     
  20. justtxyank

    justtxyank Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2005
    Messages:
    42,881
    Likes Received:
    39,830
    Germany has announced they are open to cutting Russia out of SWIFT.
     
    Amiga, Major and B-Bob like this.

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now