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Ukraine

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by NewRoxFan, Nov 25, 2018.

  1. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Member

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    Now that's some reality TV!
     
  2. foh

    foh Member

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    They are dumb to love Putin emotionally but they are not dumb to know that their sons, relatives and friends (both Russian and Ukranian based) are being killed/displaced if there is a full fledged invasion. The two countries are intensely intertwined and it is obvious that people of Ukraine have no love for Putin. And Russians are high enough on family bond, where propaganda alone won't erase that connection.
     
  3. foh

    foh Member

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    Putin was going to do something either way. He didn't just put up half his army on the banks of Ukraine for funsies
     
    snowconeman22 likes this.
  4. TheresTheDagger

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    Maybe.

    Maybe not.

    Doesn't detract from the pure stupidity of the Biden quote.
     
  5. foh

    foh Member

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    Desantis is as opportunistic as they come. And he belongs in Florida where weirdest sh*t in the country happens. Him vs Cruz vs Trump - a clown show if I ever seen one. Wonder what the rest of them will say. Time to download truth network app or whatever it's called?
     
    MadMax likes this.
  6. Amiga

    Amiga Member

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    Singapore, Japan, and Taiwan on board.

    U.S. Urges Asian Allies to Cooperate on Russia Sanctions (foreignpolicy.com)

    The Biden administration is in talks with economic powerhouses in Asia to gain their support for severe sanctions and export control packages against Russia as tensions mount over Russian troops deploying to breakaway regions in eastern Ukraine.

    Washington has so far received support from Singapore, Japan, and Taiwan for plans to implement restrictive export controls on Russia, three U.S. sources tell Foreign Policy, part of a broader sanctions package aimed at crushing Russia’s economy and technology sectors should the Kremlin move forward with plans to launch a full-fledged invasion of Ukraine. The three Asian countries are major producers of semiconductors, computer chips, and other high-end technological exports that Russia is reliant on.

    These latest developments, described to Foreign Policy by three people who are familiar with the matter, demonstrate the global ripple effect of implementing massive sanctions programs targeting Moscow. The knock-on impacts of any economic reprisals against Russia would extend well beyond Europe’s borders.

    The plan follows a relatively new playbook in the world of economic warfare, one that U.S. officials most recently used to target a Chinese telecommunications giant, Huawei. The Foreign Direct Product Rule, as the policy is known, extends U.S. jurisdiction over products made with U.S. software or technology, even if those products are made abroad by foreign companies without other ties to the United States. If implemented, it could hit many sectors of Russia’s economy in a way traditional sanctions might not—blocking Russia from importing technology critical to its oil and gas sectors; maritime, defense, and civil aviation industries; and even the import of cars, smartphones, and other consumer electronics.

    “All semiconductors on the planet are made with U.S. software or tools in part, so this will catch any destined to Russia,” Kevin Wolf, a former senior Commerce Department official now at the Akin Gump law firm, told Foreign Policy in an email. “Unlike sanctions, jurisdiction attaches to the item—and the nationality of the companies involved is irrelevant.”

    The embassies of Japan and Singapore and the diplomatic office of Taiwan in Washington did not respond to a request for comment. The State Department and National Security Council did not respond to requests for comment.

    Russian President Vladimir Putin on Monday declared his country would recognize breakaway regions in eastern Ukraine held by Russian-backed separatists and announced the deployment of what he described as Russian peacekeepers to the so-called Donetsk and Luhansk People’s Republics.

    The United States and European Union immediately condemned the move and said those involved in the decision would be sanctioned. The White House announced on Monday it would block U.S. trade with the breakaway Ukrainian regions and prepare sanctions against people operating in those areas. Those are separate from the sanctions package the United States is preparing should Russia launch a full-fledged invasion of Ukraine. Senior White House officials said the Biden administration would unveil more sanctions on Tuesday, spurred in part by its allies in Congress urging a harsher response.

    Critics of the administration, including Republican lawmakers, argue President Joe Biden should have moved forward with tougher sanctions before Putin’s move on the breakaway Ukrainian regions. They also characterized the initial sanctions against those separatist regions as weak and largely symbolic, given there is virtually no trade between them and the United States.

    Supporters of the administration’s policies say Washington needs to keep the toughest sanctions in reserve to deter a wider Russian invasion. Pulling the trigger too soon, they argue, could convince Russia to launch more military operations against Ukraine, believing it has nothing more to lose.

    “You can’t use up all your ammo now,” said Brian O’Toole, a former Treasury Department official and sanctions expert at the Atlantic Council, a think tank. “If you roll out all the sanctions now … You lose your deterrent effect, and for Putin you almost make it damned if he does, damned if he doesn’t.”

    “And that’s not a place you want Putin to be,” O’Toole added. “The guy’s a gambler to begin with, you don’t want to give him a reason to roll the dice more.”

    Russia has amassed as many as 190,000 troops near Ukraine’s border, including troops stationed in western Russia and neighboring Belarus. U.S. officials fear that even with Russia deploying so-called peacekeepers to the breakaway regions, Putin might not stop there and still launch an invasion deeper into Ukraine.


    The extension of American export controls over foreign products represents the latest method that U.S. officials are testing to ensure any planned reprisals over an invasion against the oligarchs and government elites around Putin pack a punch. That effort is made more difficult by the fact that Russia has become inured to the impact of Western sanctions for the better part of a decade, after its illegal annexation of Crimea from Ukraine in 2014.

    Sanctions experts said that Russia has long been steeling itself against new Western sanctions while preparing for action against Ukraine by stacking foreign currency reserves and building internal industries.

    In a long-winded speech on Monday, Putin insisted that the U.S.-led sanctions were an effort to hold Moscow back, with no justification.

    “The purpose is single: to keep Russia behind, to prevent it from developing,” he said. “And they will do it before even without any formal pretext. Just because we exist.”

    Washington has made clear it would not deploy troops to Ukraine, and it is relying instead on threats of punishing economic reprisals to deter Putin from launching an invasion beyond the Donbass region.

    Against the backdrop of the drama playing out on Ukraine’s borders, U.S. sources told Foreign Policy some of their Asian allies worry that China could adopt Russia’s playbook for any eventual plans to take Taiwan by force. That has been reflected inside of the Biden administration, where top officials, such as Secretary of State Antony Blinken, are already trying to figure out lessons learned from the Ukraine crisis to create a possible road map if China invades Taiwan.

    The Biden administration is still working out the particulars of sanctioning Putin’s inner circle, most of whom have finances spread out around the globe.

    British Prime Minister Boris Johnson said on Sunday that the United States and Britain planned to cut off Russian companies’ access to U.S. dollars and British pounds if an invasion goes ahead. U.S. and European officials have also drafted plans to target Russia’s large, medium, and small banks. The British government announced plans on Tuesday to sanction five Russian banks and three Russian oligarchs, all of whom were already on U.S. sanctions lists. The United States has indicated it would not cut off Russia from the SWIFT messaging system, considered a backbone of the global financial system.

    Germany, meanwhile, announced plans to stop certification of the controversial Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline, which would allow Russia to bypass Ukraine as a transit hub for its gas supplies and instead pipe gas across the Baltic Sea into Germany. The German government has faced withering criticism from U.S. lawmakers and Eastern European officials over Nord Stream 2, amid concerns that Putin could wield the pipeline for geopolitical influence over Europe, which is still reliant on Russian gas imports.

    Export control restrictions could severely impact European firms that trade with Russia as well. Originally used to protect American products that could potentially have dual-use or military applications, the Biden plan could see them used more in the vein of U.S. sanctions, using multiple controls on similar sectors to catch outbound commercial products, something most other countries have never done before. Wolf, the former senior Commerce Department official, said that companies are bracing for some of the most extensive and complicated export controls ever put forward by the U.S. government if Washington moves forward with its toughest sanctions package—and other countries will have to catch up to stop Russian products.

    “It’s kind of like the Swiss cheese approach,” Wolf said. “The Europeans and the other [countries] don’t really have either the legal authority or the history of these types of extraterritorial and novel controls … the U.S. controls will, by definition, be vastly broader in scope than anything any other ally will do.”
     
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  7. Amiga

    Amiga Member

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    Putin doesn't seem to care, but if he did, he's not going to read one sentence and think oh wonderful. Greenlight, party time.

    The US (and UK) has been effective in pre-emptively destroying Putin's propaganda and unifying the world against Russia's aggression. But let's focus on a sentence, that's what really matters here.
     
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  8. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Member

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    It's a sad state of affairs that these guys care more about trying to attack their own president and actually don't give a **** what happens anywhere else. The lack of true patriotism in a time of global crisis just to go how successful Putin's propaganda is working on them.
     
  9. Amiga

    Amiga Member

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    Candance Owens, self proclaimed experts in all things from vaccine to Russia - "NATO (under the direction from the United States) is violating previous agreements and expanding eastward. WE are at fault."

    She has no idea what she’s talking about but yet makes this statement. How did these people go from ‘we make no apology’ to being a talking head for Putin?
     
    #490 Amiga, Feb 22, 2022
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2022
    joshuaao and foh like this.
  10. Roc Paint

    Roc Paint Member

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    How could Putin feel intimidated by that speech from Binden
     
  11. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Member

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  12. LosPollosHermanos

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  13. AleksandarN

    AleksandarN Member

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    It is the continuation of everything Yes Ukrainian invasion is not the precedent. With Russia that started back when they annexed part of Georgia. All of this weakens the west’s geopolitical influence on the world stage which will have impact through out the rest of the world. Serve consequences need to happen.
     
  14. foh

    foh Member

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    Where is the "pure" stupidity in trying to be absolutely clear about various actions and their specific consequences when two nuclear "super-powers" are talking?

    Perhaps it is the sources that you are listening to that are not entirely smart?

    Just a thought

    Edit: more detailed view: The other side is obviously dead serious about their grievances - enough to spend enormous amount of preparation and money to put their strong-arm plans in motion. The other side made big advances/modernization in their strategic nuclear forces. We have to respect said determination on their part. We can't act as if it was status quo - it would just incense the other side. In other words, showing weakness and being realistic are two different things
     
    #495 foh, Feb 22, 2022
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2022
  15. DaDakota

    DaDakota Balance wins
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    Traitor.

    DD
     
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  16. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Member

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    In terms of psyops, Putin is definitely more unified on his turf than we are.

    I guess these chickenhawks want to have Biden say "we'll pile on their body bags if they cross the line" when most of America and even some of those same cons are dead set against war.

    I get they don't want to look weak (the same blustering bafoons who will claim they don't care what the world thinks when they feel it's a position of strength), but we're divided and half the nation is not happy no matter what any president says
     
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  17. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Member

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    Putin's comments about Ukrainian nationalism reminded me of my college advisor, Ronald Suny. He is a historian of Soviet history and wrote a book after the collapse of the USSR on the premise that burgeoning nationalism stoked by Soviet governing practices was a chief driver for how the collapse took place, that after the failed coup, leaders of the various republics had a nationalist base to stand on to take their republics out of the Union (ironically, at odds with the International Revolution precepts of the original Bolsheviks). I figure he'd agree with Putin that modern Ukraine is in many ways a Soviet invention, but he'd also tell you that doesn't make it any less real. (Apologies, Dr. Suny, if I have that wrong.)

    Turns out Suny is not a twitter guy, unfortunately. But he did write this article about a week ago. He dismisses the idea that Putin is trying to grow the empire, saying instead that Putin may be trying to force a favorable diplomatic solution with his brinksmanship, using the threat of force to culminate the Minsk II agreement, which would give Russia more space between Russia's borders and his enemies in Europe with neutral ground in Ukraine.

    In the stalemate of a week-ago, maybe he could get the West to the bargaining table, but he didn't have all that much to negotiate with. By occupying eastern Ukraine, he can now concede a withdrawal in return for promises of Ukrainian neutrality and easing of sanctions. And, even with no negotiated solution he can at least keep eastern Ukraine as a consolation prize. As for speeches, his brinksmanship won't be credible unless he plays the part and says all the things a conqueror would say. And for the US' part, we have to do what we said we'd do and levy some more sanctions, lest we lose leverage in negotations. In the end, the resolution still lays at Minsk II. NATO needs to be ready to concede some, and Russia to concede some, and Ukraine to be oppressed some, and if everyone can remain realpolitik about this it can all be resolved without too much suffering.
     
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  18. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Member
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    White House official says Russia’s actions amount to an ‘invasion’

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...aine-updates/#link-ULEVM2R6O5BODERTKIVC7T6QMA

    excerpt:

    Jonathan Finer, the White House principal deputy national security adviser, used the term “invasion” Tuesday to describe Russia’s deployment of troops into two pro-Russian separatist regions of Ukraine.

    “We think this is, yes, the beginning of an invasion, Russia’s latest invasion into Ukraine, and you’re already seeing the beginning of our response,” Finer said during a CNN interview in which he was pressed on whether the term is appropriate. He added that the White House would have more to say Tuesday about additional sanctions on Russia in response to the “egregious step they took yesterday away from diplomacy and down the further path toward war.”

    His comments differed from those of Biden administration officials on Monday, when they sought to hit back at Russia’s aggressive action while stopping short of declaring that it had officially invaded Ukraine, which would trigger an array of hard-hitting sanctions that President Biden has been warning about for months.
    more at the link

     
  19. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Member

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    No shocker... trump has been trying to cozy up to putin for years...

    Trump praises Putin's 'genius' plan to invade Ukraine: 'You gotta say that’s pretty savvy'
    https://www.rawstory.com/trump-putin-ukraine/
     
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