Agreed that you need both to form a clearer picture, but DRtg and DWS (to me) seem like pretty noisy stats that are inherently biased toward rebounding bigs, since they classify any defensive rebound as a "stop". I think they also take into account overall team performance, so being on a team of good defenders will inflate those ratings. You can't just point to those numbers in a vacuum and say "His DWS matches his OWS, he must be a good defender." For the record, I think Sabonis is above average at typical post defense and rebounding, but he's not going to stand out in other defensive areas. For comparisons sake, his DWS and DRtg look similar to Nikola Vucevic and Karl Anthony Towns. Good/Great players overall, but not defensive stalwarts.
Not sure about Haliburton's star potential either, but I think Indy wins this trade because they weren't going anywhere as constructed. As great as he is Sabonis would not get Indy a superstar in a trade. Haliburton is probably the best return they could get. Maybe Indy could have gotten a high lotto pick instead, but I can definitely see them preferring Haliburton over a painful rebuild.
Your aggression and negativity toward the organization is strange D-Rock/holic/Jpat Should we assume you have only been following org for two years? The last 1.5 years can be subjectively graded as bad (if you want) but the 1-2 years before that (Tillman era begins) were way, way worse. No subjective about it. Tilman ruined all that was good with his frugality, "leadership" and ultimately forcing the CP3 trade. At least this era, we have some hope.
LMAO Worst 2 year record in history of the franchise. And most season losses in franchise history. Team has been both the worst offense and worst defense in entire NBA this season. And Tilman era is ongoing. Abandon all hope.
Sabonis is ideally a third option. He can be a good player if he is surrounded by shooters and cutters... but even then he really isn't an elite talent because he likes to run the offense and he isn't All NBA level good at that and defensively he is not a good rim protector.... he also tends to clog the lane. He is best next to an elite shot blocker where he can get hustle and garbage baskets. Haliburton can play in literally any scenario.
Not sure what you were expecting from a team full of teenagers. Youngest rotation age in franchise history. I think while the defense is awful, the offense is only statistically below-average.
I think the primary suitor for EG at this point is Utah, using Ingles for salary matching. If the Jazz go in a different direction, I'd start thinking he's on the team past the deadline.
Yes, we are on the same page Generally across all team sports, DEF statistics always lag behind OFF stats because there are so fewer counting numbers to be used in developing advanced analysis Basketball basically has DRebs, Steals and Blocks, and even swats are a relatively new addition But IMO, using them to compare players of the same era and position still has some relative merit, as far as separating tiers among peers I have never really watched much of Vucevic on the Magic or Bulls, so I couldn't really comment on his DEF contributions from what I've seen The numbers show he's actually about as effective on both ends, so without any personal opinion, I'd guess he's fairly underrated as a defender Specifically on KAT vs Sabonis: You're right in that both bigs derive most of their DEF value from clearing boards The difference to me is the ratio of OFF vs DEF contributions KAT 7 seasons 45 OWS vs 17.2 DWS ( 72% / 28% ) 4.8 OBPM vs 0.1 DBPM ( 98% / 2% ) SABONIS 6 seasons 18.6 OWS vs 15.4 DWS ( 55% / 45% ) 1 OBPM vs 0.8 DBPM ( 56% / 44% ) Comparing those 2 against 3 other elite bigs whom I have watched a lot thru the years: Gobert - best DEF big of this era Jokic - best OFF big of this era Giannis - best 2WAY big of this era (all subjectively IMO) GOBERT 9 seasons 46.3 OWS vs 36.4 DWS ( 56% / 44% ) 1.7 OBPM vs 2.3 DBPM ( 43% / 57% ) JOKIC 7 seasons 53.6 OWS vs 20.8 DWS ( 72% / 28% ) 6.3 OBPM vs 2.4 DBPM ( 72% / 28% ) GIANNIS 9 seasons 50.5 OWS vs 32.6 DWS ( 61% / 39% ) 3.7 OBPM vs 2.1 DBPM ( 64% / 36% ) To me, this very rudimentary comparison at least shows a general trend that basically illustrates objectively what I subjectively suspected based on watching each guy play over several seasons: - Jokic contributes mostly on the OFF end - Gobert is the inverse, contributing more on DEF - Giannis is somewhere in between, a more balanced 2-way contributor - KAT is the most extreme imbalance, very heavily skewed towards OFF - Sabonis is the most balanced of all 5 bigs, providing more value on OFF, but also not the DEF detriment some seem to believe he is
Interesting, thanks for the insight ch44. I guess that means that we've been bluffing about the two offers, unless it was CLE/UTH and we over played our hand.
