[TheAthletic] Top 75 players in NBA history - Number 11: The Dream

Athletic should be embarrassed w having the Goat 11th. Not even top 10

gtfo

 

I wasn't expecting Westbrook to break the top ten.

 

It's really hard to come up with an All-Time list because of different eras. But, in the last 30 years the only two people I believe were better than Hakeem was Jordan and Lebron. I could see the argument for Shaq, but I haven't heard one argument convincing enough to actually change my mind... just enough for me to understand their argument. Watching some games/videos of Kareem I really wish I could've watched him live.

 

I will accept #11 on offense. But defensively, he is top 3.

 

I agree with you and everyone else who says Kobe doesn't belong in the top 10. I agree. I think he had an excellent career and he was a hell of a competitor, but he wasn't nearly as statistically dominant as most of the other guys in the top 10, and he should be a tier below in that 11-15 range.

I struggle with Duncan and Shaq, though. From a sheer skills, athleticism and versatility standpoint, I think he's got the edge of the three by a pretty big margin. Best defender, post player and pure scorer of the three. But he was the least statistically dominant player of the three and doesn't have the postseason resume that Duncan or Shaq have, which is why when I objectively look at it, I have a very difficult time ranking him higher.

You could argue that Dream accomplished a ton with less help, but I also think Duncan was the best or second best player on five title teams and never really played with a second superstar at their peak—Manu and Parker are likely Hall of Famers, but were rarely ever in that top 10-15 conversation in any given year. Dream didn't either, but he doesn't have five rings to his name.

On any given day, I could rank those three in any order and feel good about it, but gun to my head, I tend to put Dream third on that list by a hair. Personally, though, I'd rank all three ahead of Magic and Bird. Magic and Bird were phenomenal and get a ton of credit for turning the league into what it is by driving up popularity in the 80s. They were the best players of their decade and dominated their era as well as anybody, but they also had significantly shorter primes and careers overall. Longevity isn't a huge factor for me, but if two guys are similar with peak production and accolades and one guy was great for 3-5+ years longer, I'm ranking that guy higher.

 

For me

Tier 1
Jordan LeBron (statistically dominant / team dominant in their decade)

Tier 2
Russell Kareem Magic

Tier 3
Wilt Bird Hakeem Shaq Duncan Kobe

I think due to Hakeem's lack of media presence he is always put 11th. But 6th - 11th for me is very close.

 

I think Paul is a top 20-25 all-time guy when you measure peak production and consistency. He doesn't have the sexy scoring stats, and those few high-profile postseason gaffes hurt his legacy a bit, but his statistical dominance regular season and postseason just jump out. I think he's somewhere around Barkley and Robinson in terms of great superstars who never won titles in their primes but were top 10 players pretty much their entire careers and were insanely statistically dominant for 10+ years.

I totally agree on Frazier as well—he always gets overlooked even though he was the best or second best player on two title teams and one of the league's great two-way guards, historically. Personally, I'd rank him ahead of a lot of guards who typically get ranked ahead of him, like Isiah Thomas, Jason Kidd and (occasionally) Gary Payton. I'd probably put him somewhere in that 30-35 range.

 

Honestly that’s probably a fair take. Those 3 are interchangeable.
And it’s difficult to measure individual ability over team ability and championships.
The fact that Dream drug those teams to back to backs speaks more to me than Shaq and Duncan with all the help they had.
Shaq was dominant. TD was great for a long time. I still think Dream peak was higher than either, but I might not be able to be objective.

 

I don't see how Kobe and Duncan should be ahead of Dream. Dream should at least get number 9.

 

Agreed, and I probably have him somewhere around 7-9 on any given day.

What will be interesting is to see how his ranking changes over the next 10-15 years. It's hard to juggle recency bias with that nostalgic historical context we want to cling to. And I know this will be considered blasphemous in the GARM, but I think I can see three current guys aside from Lebron who could climb into that 10-15 conversation and jump Dream in the minds of the general NBA fan/analyst: Durant, Curry and Giannis.

Injuries will certainly play a factor and Giannis is still super young and probably needs more postseason success to his name, but all three have been so freakishly dominant statistically that I think when it's all said and done, they're going to climb somewhere into that tier. Hell, Durant and Curry might already be there in some fans' eyes. And in terms of pure peak dominance, it's hard not to look at Giannis' peak as one of the greatest of all-times given what he did in the playoffs last year.

And I should note that I have loathed all three are different points in their careers and would not remotely consider myself a fan of any of them. But I respect their games a ton, and I can objectively step back as a Rockets fan and look at other players through that broader historical lens. There are some great players in this era who have done some special things, and as much as we all love Dream, I think the days of him consistently being in that top 10 conversation could end 10+ years from now.

 

Not in the top 10? Absurd, written in caps.

ABSURD!

 

Dream had shot blocking titles and rebounding titles.

He is the best shot blocker in history.

He didn't win enough titles like the other 2.

What he did not have was Shaq's big mouth and exposure, Pop who stayed with San Antonio his whole life.

And Kobe,TP, Ginobili and Kawhi in their primes or close to it.

Duncan is pretty basketball savvy and intelligent, that would put him over Shaq by some.

 

# of rings is pretty darn important esp. if you were the main dude on that team. Calculating all-time greats, Kobe having 5 rings is much better than Hakeem's 2 rings. Hakeem's Rockets got drummed by the Celtics in '86 and then it took him years to get back to the finals.

Personally, I'd take Hakeem over Kobe every day ...but I'm a homer. I think 90% of basketball fans would take Kobe 1st if you were on a playground picking teams or building a fantasy team. I'd take Hakeem cause he was a beast at both ends of the court. I'd bet Hakeem's fantasy #s were always better than Kobe's.

 

What I miss from Shaq is a wide range of moves and a skillset.

He just backs you down and dunks on you, sometimes he uses a baby hook move.

 

So much disrespect.

 

Lebron ring chased by jumping from team to team with superstars. I deduct points for that.

 

While I wouldn't disagree on any of these points, I also kinda think we're getting into the contextual, narrative part of the conversation a lot while ignoring the more important aspects of player comparisons. Yes, teammates and coaches 100% matter, but at the end of the day, Hakeem wasn't as productive or as statistically dominant as those two guys and doesn't have as much hardware. Also, while I think Dream's title in 94 is among the most impressive historically when you consider lack of star teammates, Duncan's titles in 99 and 03 were similarly impressive, winning with a past-his-prime Admiral and baby Tony Parker.

I don't enjoy arguing for Duncan and Shaq over Hakeem. It literally pains me as Olajuwon is my all-time favorite athlete, and I hated those guys for much of the 90s and 2000s. I'm just trying to play devil's advocate and be objective, which I know is extremely difficult in a city where the man is practically considered a god.

Edit: One point I did want to make in hindsight is that while Olajuwon was clearly the superior shotblocker, but Duncan and Shaq have Dream beat in terms of career TRB% (although the numbers are close). So I don't think we can hang our hat on the rebounding titles.

 

do you even triple doubles

 

He and Kobe were both desperate to be Jordan. Some amount of their greatness is narrative. I have to wonder, if Kobe had the same career in Indiana, would we look at him the same way?

 

Duncan gets overrated in individual rankings because of his rings. He's top 20 all time but not better than Hakeem.