People making all these claims about tanking and drafting multiple top tier talents to be able to win a ring and when I ask for examples of teams that have done this and won a ring, people can’t give many or any examples. First of all, with the way the lottery is, especially now you could do a bunch of losing and not even wind up top 3 or top 5. Then all you’ve done is build a losing culture and drafted what you hope will at least be a decent player. Even if you look at the best teams in the league right now, which of those teams are being led by multiple top 5 picks that they drafted? Teams win rings by being good at drafting and developing players throughout the draft, hitting the lotto with a draft pick or two playing waaay above where they were selected, hitting the lotto by acquiring a star in trade/free agency. Nobody is tanking their way to the top. Philly tried it and even after all those high picks Embid is the only one left there right now. Simmons won’t play for them and even if he does they probably aren’t winning big with him either. The thunder went to a championship with Russ, James and Durant but never won one. And they drafted 3 mvps. Coaching, player development, culture and having a GM that can land big fish and quality role players is really what matters.
I disagree. Rockets had a record number of games missed to injuries to get to the worst record. We have players to be better than we are: Wall, Wood, EGo, Tate, KPJ. Then, in addition to the #2 pick we got three more first rounders, and two of them (Jaygup and Sengun) are definitely talented. In addition we got good contributions from the bargain bin: Mathews, Snipa, KMJ… There is enough talent to start building something, like Memphis. You build winning culture, and that doesn’t prevent you to make changes - obviously Wall and EGO, others may be traded in the process, like Valancunious and Grayson Allen got traded. That’s fine, it is what it is. If the plan is to have a multi-year accumulation phase, without regard to winning games, we’ll just have to go through it. The draft nerds will be giddy salivating over White KDs and Black Blakes, people like me who care about quality NBA basketball will be unhappy. And as for JG, since this is his thread, again: it doesn’t matter. The big question marks is not whether he has talent, but whether he can be the leader of a winning team the way Ja Morant is. If that’s not the goal in the next few years, then there’s no point in these discussions.
You are right - the problem is, for most teams there is no real alternative path to a championship. Superstars won‘t sign the the Charlotte Hornets, if they don‘t already have other stars. They go to NY, LA, maybe Chi, Mia. So when they can‘t sign superstars, without having a team that is already loaded, they need to draft them or trade for them. Superstars rarely get traded and they usually won‘t stay once traded to small teams, if the supporting cast isnt there. So their only hope is to draft superstars. And while you can draft them later occassionaly, the probability is highest at the top of the draft.
Do I have a choice? Obviously the organization is not interested in winning in the foreseeable future. Clutch is close to the "kitchen", I put a lot of weight on his posts. If he’s saying our core is JG, Sengun, 2022 and 2023 lotto picks, that tells me the “Memphis Way” is out of the picture.
What the **** does that have to do with what I wrote though? Did they win because of their draft success, or did they win because of Kawhi?
You’re hung up on the idea that the Rockets are losing on purpose to acquire draft picks which is simply not true. They just aren’t any good at winning yet.
Warriors (everyone) Bucks (Giannis) Spurs (everyone) Heat (Wade) Cavs (Irving and traded 1st for Love) Lakers (Kobe) Mavs (Dirk). Almost every Championship team won because their best player (except for Miami) was a superstar that they drafted. Even look at the Astros. 3 World Series as a result of a 3 year tank. I do think this team needs to draft in the Top 4 in July and then focus on culture and winning over more draft picks. You should have something with Green, Al-P and whoever you draft.
I think it would not be enough, you would want to trade for a veteran star. Of couse no Harden level player because that was one of a kind deal but let get surprised. Probably Simmons type. Start with Jalen Brunson.
I get that big markets have a leg up when it comes to getting and keeping stars. But to say their is no real alternative path isn’t true. And I believe that is part of what leads to perennial losers. Milwaukee, Golden State, Toronto, San Antonio, Dallas have all won rings since 2011. These are all the non Lebron rings. San Antonio is the only team that won with a top 3 pick that they drafted and Timmy was on his way out at the time. Even if you look back further at those shaq Kobe LA teams they still had to hit with Kobe who was drafted later and they traded for him. Knicks are a big market and haven’t been serious contenders in forever. Clippers are in LA and were a joke for a long time landing multiple top picks. Didn’t get good until they traded for cp3. If you look at teams today that haven’t won but have very good teams or star players they weren’t built with multiple top three picks either. Hell, our best chance at a ring here within the last 10 years was with a team that didn’t tank at all. It was built through accumulating assets and getting fortunate with Harden. He was able to attract Dwight and Cp3. But besides all of that….Who has tanking and landing multiple top three picks actually worked for?
That's not the way Memphis did it, your timeline is off. They drafted Ja in year 2 of their rebuild, not year 1, and you just deleted a year in the middle of their rebuild. Here's their actual timeline - Year 1: Win 22 games, lotto pick turns into JJJ Year 2: Win 33 games, lotto pick turns into Ja Morant Year 3: Win 34 games (shortened season, .466 win %), made play-in and lost, Hit on late round pick in Desmond Bane Year 4: Win 38 games (shortened season, .528 win %), lost in first round Year 5: We are here (maybe HCA, MVP consideration, borderline contender) We could definitely be on a very similar path to them, but it takes time.
No this is incorrect. A top 5 player coupled with at least one other star is how you win a chip. For most teams the best chance to get that top 5 player is to tank. Two good examples are SA with Duncan and Cleveland with LeBron. No max superstar was signing with those franchises. Now you can get a ring winning player like Curry, Giannis, Kawhi or Dirk outside the top 3 picks sure. You need the scouting but the higher the pick the better chance you have that guy your scouts identify being there to select. Culture, coaching, etc. doesn’t mean squat without a top 5 talent. Thus tanking is the best way to go. Unless you want to be a middling team like the Pacers, Knicks, Grizzlies, Blazers, etc who just stay on the treadmill forever.
All you are really saying is that it's hard to build a championship team.... Landing big fish takes luck, skill, and assets. Tanking/rebuilding through the draft (high to low picks) is our best option because of our current situation.
Like it or not, this year we ain't going nowhere. The best is probably 13th versus 15th. We are sabotaging ourselves and the FO is either clueless or as you said tanking on purpose. I select being clueless.
The Lakers didn't draft Kobe, they traded for him and traded for Shaq and Gasol. The Heat traded for Shaq and signed LeBron and Bosh (and Allen.) The Warriors signed Iggy and Durant in FA. Let's not pretend that the majority of these teams built entirely from the draft or tanked year after year after year for high picks. You're being disingenuous claiming that tanking is what caused these teams their success, it's patently false.
And fwiw: that was the crazy year when NoLa ( Zion), Mem and Lakers each jumped 6-7 spots in the lottery. #1 pick NoLa was 7th pre-lottery position #2 pick Mem was 8th pre-lottery position #3 pick NYN was 1st pre-lottery position #4 pick LAL was 11th pre-lottery position point is, as you say, *prior* to Morant, Mem was already winning probably double the games HOU will this year. And they got incredibly lucky in the lottery to jump 6 spots to get him.
The number one thing you need is order to win a championship is a generational player... if you can't get that then you likely need a minimum of 2 top 20 players, preferably 1 being a top 5. For us, we don't have assets to trade for one since we did the worst trade in Rockets history (Westbrook). Our best chance of landing one is through the draft. The best chance of landing a top player is getting a top pick. This has been discussed over and over again in other threads, not sure why it's being discussed in this thread. https://bbs.clutchfans.net/threads/poll-top-pick-or-play-in-tourney.314021/page-18
I have a hunch that Warrior fans have a deeper connection with their championship teams than Heat or Raptor fans with their teams and that's because the Warriors players were drafted and grown by the organization. It just feels more special imo rather than having a hired mercenary for a couple of seasons and then dipping. Like which team does Lebron's legacy belong to? With guys like Hakeem, Jordan, Curry, Kobe, it's obvious which teams their legacies are attached to. I'd much rather win through our drafted core than renting a couple of superstars for two seasons. I want Green, Sengun, this year's draft selection and maybe KPJ as those players that have their legacies attached to us.
