US could be under rightwing dictator by 2030, Canadian professor warns

First there are two different issues........ one is the request of the President for the VP to not certify the election and send it to the state legislatures... which, had Pence done so, would have resulted in a delay in the turning over or power (at a minimum) and certain lawsuits with the case reaching the SCOTUS who would have to decide in the Act of 1887 applied or not.... a court with a conservative majority and numerous Trump appointments. It would have been chaos.

The second issue is the storming of the Capitol building.......... where they got out the Senators two minutes before the building was completely breached. What do you think the plan was for Senators like Romney? Democrats? Do you think they would have attacked them? If so, don't you believe having the entire Senate under attack is a national crisis?

Tell me the last time anything remotely happened to the USA, and was caused by it's own elected officials? The closest I have found was over 150 years ago.

 

Yep... and my point isn't really to make one to you who understand history, and the consequences of what Trumpism could lead to. It's more for the people like on the right like Os Trig who obviously thinks it's a big joke and don't understand their role as a supporter of political figures who are... well openly working to overthrow Democracy. There are people like my Grandparents who I'm sure don't care because they don't have to live long with the consequences, and just want to feel like winners for a moment... but many will who think they wont.

Venezuela too is a great example of the destabilization effect. You take away people's ability to vote, and you are really F-ing with a country's stability, and it could have dramatic effects on our economy as well.

I just don't think they really understand what they are supporting, and aren't even being honest with themselves about it. Unfortunately people like Os will probably just respond with a meme or a Jonathan Turley op ed, and then create a thread spewing right wing propaganda.

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/do...ence-can-t-overturn-election-results-n1252869

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/05/us/politics/pence-trump-election-results.html

Wow, looky here.

 

I don't disagree that January 6 was shameful. I don't consider it to have a been an event that for one second made me think, "these people have the ability to take over our government" - that position in insane. I thought, "Hopefully they just let them take over an empty building, identify them and prosecute them later, that's what would be most prudent" and I'm glad that's largely what happened.

What if they had gotten to some legislatures? Idk? Maybe some violence? They certainly had opportunities to kill capital police and chose not to. There was a lot of bluster. A decision to commit outright murder? Maybe. I doubt it but maybe. If they had would that have brought down our democracy? No.

 

that sounds like an incredibly intellectual point you are trying to make . . . I'm impressed

 

Yea, I have 0 reason to believe Supreme Court Justices John Roberts, Clarence Thomas, Neil Gorsuch, Brett Kavanaugh and Amy Comey Barrett would have decided to give the VP the power to deny certification of election results and force a reelection(?). There's really no reason to believe that was ever a possibility other then some folks imagination.

 

If you are fine with the idea of a sitting President contesting the election results and asking his VP to not certify the election.... and supporters of that President attempting to get at the US elected Senators...... because the SCOTUS (which has a majority of the party of the President contesting the election) will save the day....... then we just have different definitions of what a real threat is.

To me, the fact that several levels of protections were breached is concerning to me and not something I expect from the worlds most stable democracy, but something that happens in a third world banana republic.

It also had nothing to do with it being Republicans doing it...... I am equally scared of Democrats doing the same thing honestly.

 

I don't like Trump, his rhetoric, his lawsuits or any of that but like I said, I didn't see a real threat to the Democracy predicated upon the actions of January 6. Pence doesn't have the authority to not certify the next president, the law is clear, I trust the SCOTUS.

I think 2,000 idiots storming the capital building is exactly that.... 2,000 idiots sitting in an empty edifice. I don't think anyone would give them authority to administers our institutions of government. It's a gesture totally devoid of any real ability to effectuate governance.

If the standard of "in danger" is well, the VP might or might not decide to certify the elections results... we're all relying on the whim of one man... then our democracy is extremely vulnerable... fortunately... that's not really how it works.

 

You should examine history of democracies or republics ending and how they did. It's usually the 2000 that spear head with millions behind backing them up with rhetoric and/or apathy.

The number you should be concerned with isn't the amount of actual people that participated in the riot. Rather look at the amount of Americans that believe Joe Biden is an illegal usurper and that our voting system is completely fraudulent like a third world banana republic.

Do you think millions of literal Germans rose to the streets to prop up a Hitler led government?

 

You clearly have not read the 12th amendment.

No the VP does not have the right to do anything other than just preside over the counting of the electoral votes. A presidential election result gets overturned by the House of Representatives in the end who have the ability, the states do not send the appropriate number of electors to elect a president (270), to vote on a state by state basis with one vote per state.

THIS HAS ALREADY HAPPENED BEFORE FYI. The Calhoun election had 12 faithless electors sent and because of this dissent among the electors the House voted and overturned an election.

So no... the VP does not have the constitutional power to overturn an election, and the Supreme Court would weigh in to say so I'm sure. However the state electors can monkey around and it would be hard for the Supreme Court to step in and STOP a House Speaker Kevin McCarthy from holding a vote on January 6th 2025 if the electoral votes weren't there to count. If Kevin McCarthy called the vote, the House Parliamentarian can say that it's not allowed, and Democrats could file a lawsuit, but that all cannot be done that day, and it would be hard to reverse that vote if they even can under the 12th amendment.

So read the 12th amendment... it's there, but of course it's not super detailed because the rules of how they actually execute on what the Constitution says are written then by the House and Senate leaders which... like the filibuster... can just be changed whenever they want. Hence why it's so important to like let autocrats hold power in the House of Representatives.

 

We will just have to disagree.

They were very close to getting to the Senators (in part because no one thought anything like that would ever happen). The number I heard one of the officers use was less than two minutes. They said that they were understaffed and did not get the approval to send in the national guard from the President. That to me is very close. Also, while none of us know what would have happened, I think we both can agree that either some of the senators or protestors would have ended up dead. The police would have shot to guard the Senators.

Would it have brought down our government in concert with Pence not certifying the election? I don't know - it would have been up to the court.... but it is cutting it close, and it was all unnecessary and happened because no one thought it COULD happen. So did I think the government was being over thrown? No, but for the first time it was something I really thought about in real time as a possibility.

IMO anyone involved in that shouldn't be politically viable.

 

say the guy who’s arguing things he’s admitted he hasn’t read up on. Go away troll.

 

the end goal was not for those 2000 fools to overthrow the government. The end goal was to cause enough chaos for the election to be sent to the House of Representatives. In the end it failed, but it was a very close call that could have happened if Pence had gone along with Trump.

 

I watched the HBO Max documentary on the event. It had a lot of great footage chronicling the event. I recommend it if you haven't seen it. Yea, the rioters did get close to the legislators and a capital police officer did shoot and kill a rioter. I think what he did was an error and I think you would see why if you watched the documentary, it cover the scene well.

Then there were other scenes where capital police officers got on the wrong side of the lines and could have easily been killed, however, the rioters helped him return to his side of the lines.. so... everyone has different temperaments but I think by and large, no, murder wasn't the desire. That doesn't make what the rioters did ok but it speaks to the murderous intent or lack thereof.

Even in a scenario where legislators are murdered, that makes the even more tragic and stupid but it doesn't impact the rioters ability to have anyone listen to them or give them real authority to administer our systems of governance. There's no correlation there.

I don't think there was any chance at all anyone would have said, "Oh you 2,000 idiots occupied the Capital building, I guess we will take orders from you now, who are you installing as secretary of Housing and Urban Development?" - I mean, that's not even close to a rationale concern.

If Pence would have gone rogue, he would have been challenged in court and lost because he actually has no real legal authority to refuse to play kingmaker.

 

I think it's funny AOC/Bernie was brought up as the left's authoritarian response, not only are those 2 examples amongst the heaviest democracy pushers we have in our entire political system, money doesn't support them, the people don't support them. If America is getting an authoritarian lefty, I think it will be of a Hillary Clinton mold, I think it would get the support of the average Dem, you probably won't see it coming so cleverly as you think you do when looking at "get money out of politics" AOC/Bernie

 

How many actual Bolshevik stormed government buildings at 2:10 AM? How many stormed the Winter Palace?

If I remember right it was several thousand protestors and only a handful of Bolsheviks?

Most revolutions are not representative of the majority of people....... they are a small group of people that capitalize on the apathy of the majority.... same with Pol Pot and even the Shah.

 

I haven't been uncharitable, vulgar or particularly rude with anyone. I'm conducting a fairly civil discourse. All you have done is act borish. No one asked for your insertion into the discussion.

I'm sure you'd love a left-wing echo chamber and to silence anyone who doesn't agree with you, fascist that you appear to be but it's good to have free and robust discussion about perception of events.

 

Liz Warren is the only one I like
Maybe Bernie

Can they run someone with A CHANCE and UNDER 60 YEARS OLD?

Rocket River
NO .. . NOT YOU BETO!!! SIT YOUR DUMBASS DOWN!!

 

With this worldview you're always on the edge of the dissolution of a government but in reality and fortunately our Republic is strong and was never in any real or serious jeopardy.

Apparently the VP can just bring the whole things down on his own according you @fchowd0311. That's pretty tenuous. It's nonsense of course but it's nice rhetoric.

All of the examples given speak of governments that were in extremely extremely tenuous positions with a vast array of social, political and cultural problems and scares going backs years and years (Germany) or decades/centuries (Russia) and are not applicable comparisons at all.

 

I have seen the documentary. I am not claiming that everyone present intended to murder people, and the police were in large part smart to just open the doors and let the rioters in - as they were not there to quarrel with the police, but get to the legislators inside.

No one is saying that the protestors would have suddenly been the ruling government... it is about the response of the military to dead or injured Senators and the lack of action by the President that set off other dominoes.

In Gore v. Bush the vote was completely down political lines, I would not be comfortable resting on the SCOTUS making the decision. Do I believe they would vote to certify the election? Yes, but I am not entirely comfortable with the US democracy resting on their shoulders.

What do you think happens if Senators are injured or killed? What if the President doesn't call in the national guard? What do you think the chaos is across the country? Especially in light of the stupid **** that had happened in Michigan? There were concerns at the time at the various state level governments. Does the military get involved?

We need dependability and predictability for our democracy to work, and someone that was in power abused that power and attempted through various means to not have the election certified. That is horrifying to me.