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[NYT] Why Hospitals and Health Insurers Didn’t Want You to See Their Prices

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Amiga, Aug 24, 2021.

  1. Amiga

    Amiga Member

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    Why Hospitals and Health Insurers Didn’t Want You to See Their Prices - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

    This year, the federal government ordered hospitals to begin publishing a prized secret: a complete list of the prices they negotiate with private insurers.

    The insurers’ trade association had called the rule unconstitutional and said it would “undermine competitive negotiations.” Four hospital associations jointly sued the government to block it, and appealed when they lost.

    They lost again, and seven months later, many hospitals are simply ignoring the requirement and posting nothing.

    But data from the hospitals that have complied hints at why the powerful industries wanted this information to remain hidden.

    It shows hospitals are charging patients wildly different amounts for the same basic services: procedures as simple as an X-ray or a pregnancy test.

    And it provides numerous examples of major health insurers — some of the world’s largest companies, with billions in annual profits — negotiating surprisingly unfavorable rates for their customers. In many cases, insured patients are getting prices that are higher than they would if they pretended to have no coverage at all.

    Until now, consumers had no way to know before they got the bill what prices they and their insurers would be paying. Some insurance companies have refused to provide the information when asked by patients and the employers that hired the companies to provide coverage.

    This secrecy has allowed hospitals to tell patients that they are getting “steep” discounts, while still charging them many times what a public program like Medicare is willing to pay.

    And it has left insurers with little incentive to negotiate well.

    ...

    The requirement to publish prices is a rare bipartisan effort: a Trump-era initiative that the Biden administration supports. But the data has been difficult to draw meaning from, especially for consumers.

    The New York Times partnered with two University of Maryland-Baltimore County researchers, Morgan Henderson and Morgane Mouslim, to turn the files into a database that showed how much basic medical care costs at 60 major hospitals.

    The data doesn’t yet show any insurer always getting the best or worst prices. Small health plans with seemingly little leverage are sometimes out-negotiating the five insurers that dominate the U.S. market. And a single insurer can have a half-dozen different prices within the same facility, based on which plan was chosen at open enrollment, and whether it was bought as an individual or through work.

    But the disclosures already upend the basic math that employers and customers have been using when they try to get a good deal.

    People carefully weighing two plans — choosing a higher monthly cost or a larger deductible — have no idea that they may also be picking a much worse price when they later need care.

    Even for simple procedures, the difference can be thousands of dollars, enough to erase any potential savings.

    It’s not as if employers can share that information at open enrollment: They generally don’t know either.

    “It’s not just individual patients who are in the dark,” said Martin Gaynor, a Carnegie Mellon economist who studies health pricing. “Employers are in the dark. Governments are in the dark. It’s just astonishing how deeply ignorant we are about these prices.”

    ...

    The worrying thing is that the third party you’re paying to negotiate on your behalf isn’t doing as well as you would on your own,” said Zack Cooper, an economist at Yale who studies health care pricing.

    ‘They don’t want their secrets out there’
    Employers are the largest purchasers of health insurance and would benefit the most from lower prices. But most select plans without knowing what they and their workers will pay.

    To find out what the prices are, they would need to solicit bids for a new plan, which can frustrate employees who don’t want to switch providers.

    It also requires the employers to hire lawyers and consultants, at a cost of about $50,000, estimated Nathan Cooper, who manages health benefits for a union chapter that represents Colorado sheet metal and air-conditioning workers.

    “If you want the prices, you have to spend to get them,” he said.

    ...

    The new price data is often published in hard-to-use formats designed for data scientists and professional researchers. Many are larger than the full text of the Encyclopaedia Britannica.

    And most hospitals haven’t posted all of it. The potential penalty from the federal government is minimal, with a maximum of $109,500 per year. Big hospitals make tens of thousands of times as much as that; N.Y.U. Langone, a system of five inpatient hospitals that have not complied, reported $5 billion in revenue in 2019, according to its tax forms.

    As of July, the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services had sent nearly 170 warning letters to noncompliant hospitals but had not yet levied any fines.

    Catherine Howden, a spokeswoman for the agency, said it expected “hospitals to comply with these legal requirements, and will enforce these rules.”

    She added that hospitals that do not post prices within 90 days of a warning letter “may be sent a second warning letter.”

    The agency plans to increase the fines next year to as much as $2 million annually for large hospitals, it announced in July.
     
  2. T_Man

    T_Man Member

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    It all started with this man and this company.... They were the ones that created this monster of healthcare and insurance today....

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  3. juicystream

    juicystream Member

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    Healthcare in America. Where nobody knows what it costs, what they are actually covered for, where they actually covered, where you receive 3 bills from different providers for the same visit, and that you never know what is correct because you don't know which one the insurance will pay first.
     
  4. ROXTXIA

    ROXTXIA Member

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    NOT WHITE GRANDPA! WE LOVE WHITE GRANDPA!
     
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  5. DaDakota

    DaDakota Balance wins
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    **** insurance companies, this is why we need a National healthcare program.

    So what if you pay 2k more in taxes per year if it saves you 6k in insurance payments.

    DD
     
  6. dobro1229

    dobro1229 Member

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    I got a $500 bill the other day from a doctor where I literally walked in, sat in a waiting room, the nurse (not even the doc), talked to me for maybe a minute and a half, and said I need to go the hospital.

    Now imagine owning a hardware store. Someone comes into your store, and asks to buy a pool pump, and you say they need to go to Leslies pool supplies, but the security guard at the door says you need to pay $200 in order to leave the store or they'll bankrupt you.

    What we put up with in this country in regards to health care costs is INSANE.
     
  7. T_Man

    T_Man Member

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    Insurance have control of politicians now... They put a lot of money in their pockets.. I mean into their campaign... I mean all Politicians on all sides...

    T_Man
     
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  8. steddinotayto

    steddinotayto Member

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    I work in healthcare IT and one of the products I used to implement was a pricing transparency product that was supposed to help hospitals meet the 1/1/21 mandate mentioned above. Let's just say it was a disaster all around.
     
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  9. Nook

    Nook Member

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    There is a lot of ignorance on both sides.

    We are not going to have Medicare prices and if we did, the quality of healthcare would be terrible.

    Having said that, the insurance industry is too involved.... and there is entirely too many administrators and over head.
     
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  10. steddinotayto

    steddinotayto Member

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    That's the main problem--insurance companies have a unrelenting kung fu grip on healthcare. HealthCare Services Corporation runs BCBS for Texas, Illinois, Oklahoma, etc. and they also own (or own a majority) of a health system based out of Massachusetts (Steward Health) that has hospitals all over the nation, including St. Joseph in Houston. It's a cesspool of f***ery.
     
  11. T_Man

    T_Man Member

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    Insurance companies are the TRUE Mafia....

    They have such a big and tight grip on things from Healthcare, Auto and more... Big business and Industry run this country... Not Politicians.. Politicians are just the puppet...

    I have contracted with several Big Insurance companies and it's amazing how they would give me the business rules to Architect the system before the house voted and agreed on it and it was released....

    T_Man
     
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  12. krosfyah

    krosfyah Member

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    My wife went to the doctor at Memorial Hermann, which is In-Network. However, the attending Dr. wasn't available so they sent in a stand-in. Later she got a bill for like $800 because it turns out that the stand-in Dr. was out-of-network. Makes one want to start throwing fire bombs ...but just not sure who/where.

    We talk a lot recently about systemic racism ...and what that even means. But here is another systemic problem. How does an individual even begin to tackle a problem that is stacked against you at every turn? You just gotta bend over and take it. It is what it is (which is unfair).
     
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  13. steddinotayto

    steddinotayto Member

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    If this wasn't an emergency visit and was a scheduled appointment you can call the billing office at Memorial Hermann and dispute the charge. Scheduled visits should follow a protocol of verifying insurance benefits prior to a patient visit. If they knew the doctor was OON the correct thing is for them to let you and your wife know that first.
     
  14. Amiga

    Amiga Member

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    2017 data on admin cost: 812B. $2497 per capita. 34.2% of national health expenditures is for admin cost. That's a whole boat load of waste.

    Now, that's just admin cost. What this new info shows is that we have a much more serious issue with pricing than we thought. At least what I thought. Pretty crazy that non-insured that pay OOP pay less than insured who has insurer negotiating price on their behave. The differences in health care price charged to consumer between insurance plans from the same insurer at the same hospital is up to 2-3x. Not sure how you even begin to explain that.
     
  15. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Member

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    This is why I was against Obamacare. Obamacare wasn't going to fix anything if we let the insurance companies keep their numbers hidden. Anyone in administration knows corporations beat the hell out of numbers.

    Why isnt anyone thanking Trump for standing up to the insurance companies?
     
  16. Amiga

    Amiga Member

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    I thanked him privately when he issued the EO (was it an EO?) in 2019. The murderous monster did a very good thing here.
     
  17. juicystream

    juicystream Member

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    I've had the same thing happen. I complained to the insurance company and they paid it (it wasn't a lot of money).

    Similar things happen frequently with Anesthesia and Lab services. You should not be able to go somewhere in-network, but get billed for out of network in any situation.

    Another huge complaint I have is one time our insurer in the middle of the year quit covering my son's ADHD medication. Why on earth when we only get open enrollment once a year, can an insurer change their coverage in the middle of the year? What a scam.
     
  18. adoo

    adoo Member

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    what specifically did he do???
     
  19. krosfyah

    krosfyah Member

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    Wow, I've never heard of that one.

    My take now, partly because I'm fortunate enough to have such an option, is to avoid insurance companies wherever possible. What is clear is that insurance companies are fundamentally not there for your personal protection. They do not represent you. They represent themselves. As long as you know that going in, then you can make the choice of what makes sense on a case-by-case basis.
     
  20. krosfyah

    krosfyah Member

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    Yea, we complained and got it resolved ...but that was extra time out of her day and added frustration ...which of course doesn't get compensated.
     

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