Well, yes, this is not new. At some point we should expect better. All this required was a little planning. That shouldn't be too much to ask. We're basically telling the world we can't even leave effectively. My gosh, that's a low bar.
Agree completely. That's why the claims they didn't anticipate this are either displaying total ignorance, or total incompetence. Neither of those is a good thing. True. Hopefully we learn something from that...but not hopeful. We didn't even learn very pointed lessons from when we left Iraq (ie, the EXACT same things happened here), so our capacity for self reflection ain't great. Yes, but the point is...it could have been opened a whole lot better. Rather than carefully place the bag of **** in the trash, they opened it up wide and threw the **** all over the place.
The actual end state of the Taliban taking over Aghanistan...yes. But could the path to get there have been MUCH better done? Also, yes. Politically, and this may change if all relevant people are successfully evacuated, it's not looking good for him. The MSM is being highly critical of this (and it is nice to FINALLY see the press doing its job). That doesn't bode well. It also seems as if much of the decision process can be tied back to him. That also doesn't bode well for him. Will that last more than a few months? Remains to be seen. The other political aspect worth following is seeing which heads roll, whether deservedly, or as scapegoats. If nobody...that story might continue, longer than the administration wants. But, if they do axe some people, that also presents issues...tacit admission of faulty planning. I'm guessing they won't do that, then, given their hard line on this having been perfectly planned and executed. It's worth noting that they actually promoted the person who spun the Benghazi lies...and that sadly seemed to work out ok then. But this is a far larger cockup than that was.
I think it’s just semantics, they knew the Afghan army was weak but just didn’t think it would this bad. I would bet the Biden Admin didn’t want this dragging out (there are many domestic issues that need attention) so they decided to rip off the bandaid.
If Trump did this and the MSM press and Fox News were critical of Trump, you don't think many people would say "the defense industry had their thumbs pressed on the press"? And you wouldn't think there is an ounce of validity to the claim? If the MSM media is known to treat Biden with kid gloves why in this one particular subject they become highly critical? If Biden tried to push a single payer system right now, the MSM press would also be highly critical.
It’s not going to be a big deal in a few months when the media narrative shifts. Sure, there will be more news stories but it’s going to fade. Domestic issues (covid and the economy) will be far more important. We both know the GOP will use this during the midterms. There’s a lot of crocodile tears from the right when the Syria withdrawal was very similar. Although the reasoning behind the abrupt Syria withdrawal is far more murky.
Ok, fair enough. Just take that off the list. It isn't really the problem. The problem is that it was poorly planned regardless of when it occurred. Yes, that was the goal. Psaki said just that in her presser. Notice what is missing from that statement (and hers). No mention at all of US Citizens, or anyone else, besides the troops. THAT is the fatal flaw that occurred here. Biden told NATO he would get everyone's troops out, with no casualties. Ok, he did. But what DIDN'T he do (or even plan on doing)? Get everyone else out. Yes, which elaborates on what I said above. All that was planned was the evacuation of the TROOPS. No one else. I'm fine with this response, but again, you have to look at what ISN'T being responded to. This is to secure the airport. It is NOT to get people TO the airport. We are completely dependent on the Taliban for that. So, fine as for what it is, but can't neglect what it isn't. FWIW, the Pentagon flatly lied when asked about this. They said 'we do not have the capability to gather large numbers of people'. That's absurd, and a complete lie. We have the capability to completely overrun the whole country, and take out whoever we desire. We don't have the troops there for that currently...that is true. I'm NOT arguing that we should scale up massively to invade again. I'm just pointing out that was they said is FALSE. There is a huge difference between CAN'T and WON'T. If you told us (America) what the reasons we won't do that are, we'd probably agree. But lying to us doesn't really help the situation here. You could also read between the lines, at many points, in the DoD, and even the State Department, presser. The military especially had some long pauses when asked how this happened. Why? Because they know why, and know that saying why would be..frowned upon. You can read between the lines there and realize they told the administration that many of these decisions were not recommended. Whether overridden by State, or Biden's team, or both...remains to be seen.
Quite possibly true. Yes, the GOP will hammer this. How successful that is likely depends a lot on how it eventually ends (imagine if there are STILL thousands of Americans there, behind enemy lines). But it is going to be hammered regardless. Frankly, it should be. It would be the same if the sides were reversed.
In an ideal world, once this passes, there would be some political blowback against both parties for how this happened. It was 20 years of Republican and Democratic mismanagement that spilled over this week. It's sobering and, for millennial voters, tiring to see a conflict that started when they were in middle school percolate in the background of the national dialogue for their entire adult lives before boiling over in one week. If we were capable of holding our leaders to account then this would stay on our minds during every single foreign policy discussion from here on out. I don't know how some of our older posters felt after Vietnam, but this has really laid bare for me, as a millennial, how we've prioritized and managed our society for my adult life. We asked our soldiers to fight in a war for another nation that had no concept of its own autonomy for two decades, spent trillions on another country while our own crumbled beneath our feet and proposed legislation was attacked as "too expensive", and watched as yet another vacuum is created for Chinese and Russian influence abroad while our own moral authority collapses at home. It's hard not to be cynical about all of it. But a starting point could be a sober assessment of all decisions made to keep the US in Afghanistan (and Iraq) for two decades, why the military's public statements didn't match the reality on the ground in a war where very few Americans had any skin in the game and how we can move forward abroad while recommitting ourselves to domestic ideals that made us admired around the world.
This was more like a 2T ponzi scheme or FL swamp investment. Asking for more planning in hopes to "save 20%" would not have made a difference in losing most/all of your investment. I mean I wish things were better and our allies were taken care of but we were clearly lied to for most of the occupation in terms of progress and development.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/confid...nistans-collapse-11629406993?mod=hp_lead_pos7 Confidential State Department Cable in July Warned of Afghanistan’s Collapse About two dozen State Department officials in Kabul sent an internal memo to Secretary of State Antony Blinken By Vivian Salama Aug. 19, 2021 5:03 pm ET WASHINGTON -- About two dozen State Department officials serving at the embassy in Kabul sent an internal memo to Secretary of State Antony Blinken and another top State Department official last month warning of the potential collapse of Kabul soon after the Aug. 31 troop withdrawal deadline, according to a U.S. official and a person familiar with the cable. The cable, sent via the State Department’s confidential dissent channel, warned of rapid territorial gains by the Taliban and the subsequent collapse of Afghan security forces, and offered recommendations on ways to mitigate the crisis and speed up an evacuation, the two people said. The cable, dated July 13, also called for the State Department to use tougher language in describing the atrocities being committed by the Taliban, one of the people said. The classified cable represents the clearest evidence yet that the administration had been warned by its own officials on the ground that the Taliban’s advance was imminent and Afghanistan’s military may be unable to stop it.
I get your point, but not planning to get US Citizens out...to follow the investment analogy, that's spending a little bit to keep from having all your other investments not crater. That's bad on many levels. That's true. Have you seen the movie War Machine? It's about Afghanistan... a while back. Mostly during Petraus' tenure. But, the flaws it points out, to the lies being told, how far too many decisions were politically driven, not militarily, etc etc....all hold true for most of the engagement.
That's a heartfelt, well made...and sad..point. The key is the first part 'if we were capable of holding our leaders to account'. We don't seem able to do that. If we don't do that, we have really really really wasted our time, money, and soldier's lives there. Will we? We shall see.
Not sure what point you are trying to make, regarding the defense industry. That they control the press in general? Current events would seem to indicate that's not true, or they wouldn't be critical here. I think because this issue crossed lines they couldn't support. Would they? On what do you base that? Were they highly critical of Sanders? I suspect they'd support it. Pretty vocally, in fact. There is a large cadre of people that support it, who they often seem to cater to. If you are trying to say the MSM isn't highly biased in favor of liberals, that's just ...completely false. Has been for a long time. The press is the most solid (and liberal) voting block in the country. Like 98% of them vote Democrat. But, as I said in the earlier post, it is good to see them being critical here. The press should be highly critical of our government. That's their role. It shouldn't really matter who is running the government. Maybe this is a sign that worm has turned, which is good. I will say that Big Tech is far far worse than the MSM in this regard. It's one thing to be biased in the stories/articles the MSM puts forward. Ok, that's free speech, and there are others doing the opposite. But to actively restrict the free speech of Americans, for political purposes? That's far far worse. That we let them do it is probably even worse.
Yeah, was that the one with Brad Pitt(?) that exposed what a joke the generals were doing there under Obama's direction in order to "look good"? Definitely no bueno and a sign that Afghanistan became the red headed stepchild among the War on Terror siblings. I still call that Bush presidency the moment we landed in Bizarro universe. A lot of things went downhill at that time. Not guaranteeing Gore would've been better, but you got 9/11, Homeland Security, an entire spying apparatus, 2 Wars, Enron, Financial busts, the beginning of 8+ rounds of QE, etc... that make any American wonder where tf all our prosperity went off to.
Yep. And Russell Crowe as his successor! It's not a great movie...stuck between satire and documentary. But its fairly watchable. Based off of a very critical Rolling Stones' article on the war (and part of the story shows that happening, with reporter embedded over there, etc). I would have loved to disagree with all of it...but I couldn't. It all seems pretty relevant currently.
