Shams - Philly offered Simmons/Thybulle + draft compensation. Did we make the right deal?

Maybe. I really doubt that Morey would pull off the deal Stone did to grab Sengun. Not because he couldn't, but because he didn't have the will to give up two future assets on a player who has never played in the NBA.

 

I'm not sure why.... the last time Morey had more than 2 picks was the Lamb, Royce White, and TJones draft and he most definitely was trying to package them to move up. Good thing it didn't work out since we got Harden.

Morey was constantly looking at ways to improve the roster from my perspective, I don't believe he would have blinked at giving up future assets for someone he deemed worthy.

 

You are looking at the effect not the root cause.

Like I said in the ringer article, it focuses on Morey having to trade a FRP to shed Brandon Knight and Chriss' salaries to get under the tax. That's the effect already, the root cause isnt Tillman is unwilling to pay the tax, the root cause is Morey signed Anderson to 18M cuz he thought Scrubb is the next Dirk. If Morey didnt sign Anderson to 18M a year would there be a need to trade Melton and him for Chriss and Brandon Knight? No. IIRC the cap back then was only 60-80M, so 18M devoted to Ryan Scrubberson was a lot of money devoted to a useless player. Now you're asking why Tillman didnt pony up to pay for Ryan Scrubberson? Cuz he a scrub man, paying 36M in taxes for a scrub I can understand why the owner would want some assurance before he pays up.

If Morey signed bangers left and right and used our cap wisely then you can def blame tillman for not paying up. But that's not the case right? Starting from blowing the cap on EG and Ryan Scrubberson the Rox never really recovered and only tried to replace Scrubb's deal with other vets.

 

Morey was TRYING to move up but never did. He never managed to get anything done just like whats happening in Philly now. Not sure if its because he makes ridiculous demands like the Ben Simmons scenarios.

I remember at least 2 occassions where he tried to get Cousins and Rubio but never did anything although Rox were "in the mix" or w/e.

 

Well, improving the roster IS the main job for a GM. If he wasn't doing that, he shouldn't be on the job. I am not saying Morey is a bad GM. In fact, I explicitly said that he was among the better ones. But some people here would defend him from any criticism and seem to believe that he has no weaknesses. That's certainly not true.

Of course he would give up future assets for someone he deemed worthy. Who wouldn't? The fact is, he never seemed to deem someone in the draft worthy enough to give up enough assets to obtain him. This was Stone's first draft as the GM. He immediately did something Morey had not done for more than a decade.

I am not saying it is good or bad. Sengun could conceivably be a bust. And it wouldn't be the first time CF was excited about some player who ended up not very good. What I'm saying is that Morey has little confidence in finding talents through the draft. It might be a smart thing to do. Morey has been in the league for a long time now. He has yet drafted a star level player. Not one. I believe the highest pick he had was #12, and he took Jeremy Lamb.

 

Ok? We had constant roster turnover.... we were constantly trying to improve on the margins (and we often did) and struck out a lot on the bigger deals. We have how many first round picks and ex players that played in 2020 playoffs?

Seems like you are having these unrealistic expectations when Les imposed no tanking and no luxury tax on Morey and Tilman imposed no luxury tax and cost cutting. I don't think Morey is the best GM of the decade but top 3 or top 5 for sure.

 

But you suggested Morey wouldn't do the "main job of a GM" of improving the roster through a trade (Sengun) which I don't see any proof of.

I would point out the Stone is a Morey disciple or from the Morey tree. Morey never had the treasure trove of assets that Stone had, 3 FRP plus like 8 or more futures.

Stone had the assets and the partner across the table (presti in pick collection mode) to get the deal done. I don't see why Morey wouldn't have pulled the trigger if he liked Sengun.

I just don't see how the results show that. He has drafted a several mid to late FRP and SRP that have went on to get multiple contracts and contribute on playoff teams. I would argue Morey has drafted well given where his picks were located.

He just identified a potential star who turned out to be a generational superstar and traded spare parts for it. Morey's biggest failure has been finding a robin for his batman. Howard was good on a paper but turned out to be mentally a child who believed he should be like Shaq/Dream... CP3 was just unlucky and a huge gamble that ended up torpedoing the Harden era.....

 

You don't honestly believe the tax hit in the year we shed Anderson was going to be 36 mill?

Feels like you're on your narrative.

 

We did the right thing, no question.

You cannot have a contender level offense with two total non shooters in the starting lineup. Simmons is a total nonshooter. That means in order to have a contender level offense with Ben Simmons playing 30+ minutes, you have to pair him with a unicorn center—basically Jokic or KAT or AD and no one else—to have a championship level offense. (And it's not even clear it would work with KAT. To win a championship with a softie guarding the rim, you basically have to have an alltime level offense.) Basically, any other center or collection of centers can't win a championship with Ben Simmons on the roster.

And on top of that he's paid a max salary, so you are limited in what you can put around him under the cap. Ben Simmons will absolutely help you have an avg level offense, and in the right circumstances a good offense, but never an elite one—unless you're Denver or LA or MN.

And I want the Rockets to contend for a championship. So no, I don't want Simmons.

 

I think the above is indisputable, but I'm also quite stoned.

 

I don't know anyone can prove either way. It's all conjectures. But what you said was a meaningless claim. He would trade for anyone he deemed worthy. That's like saying I would eat what I like to eat. Or triangle would be a circle if it was round. It's just a tautological statement.

I already pointed out that he didn't value developing young players. The only draftee that had significant contribution to the Rockets I can think of was Capela. That's it. Even if you forgive him of picking Marcus Morris over Kawhi Leonard, and point out that Morris turned out to be a solid player, the fact is that Morey traded Morris for a second round pick before he developed into a useful player. We sometimes make fun of how many ex-Rockets ("Rockets legends" ) are out there contributing to lots of other teams.

The biggest achievement of Morey was of course trading for Harden. Think about it. If Harden wasn't available, what would Morey's legacy in Rockets history?

To be fair, success in the NBA involves a lot of luck. Even Morey admitted that he didn't expect Harden to be this good. And I give a lot of credit to Morey's diligence in being always prepared to jump on opportunities. Harden being available was luck. Pulling off the trade before everybody else was hard work.

 

The tax is dollar for dollar on average. Not sure what the exact amount is but 18 x 2 is 36 right? Its an irrelevant fact doesnt matter if its 36M or 1 dollar point is Tillman may have had reservations paying the tax to keep Ryan Anderson on the team. The team is full of scrubs if I was Tillman I'd balk ar paying the tax for Harden and bunch of role players. GsW paid the tax for Curry, Dray and Thompson. OKC paid the tax for KD, WB and Ibaka. Rox gonna pay the tax for EGo, Scrubberson and Ariza? Lol. That's the "narrative". Compare all stars to overpaid role players.

Do you agree Ryan Anderson and Ego signing destroyed the cap yes or no? Morey prides himself on analytics but got suckered into signing the most overpaid and bloated deal of the offseason. Prior that he tried to give Kent Bazemore and failed, Bazemore also turned into a bonifide scrub.

I give Morey a ton of credit for Harden trade but tbh thats the only major move he did that had significant impact and were franchise altering. He was basically a one hit wonder like A-Ha with Take on Me.

Other major moves have been bombs like Cp3 trade, WB trade, passing on Kawhi for Marcus Morris, getting rejected by Melo 3x and the aforementioned EG/Scrubberson signings.

 

Yeah - but we were going to be over by less than 2 or 3 mill.

You have a peculiar read on this particular scenario and it is possible other bias are dictating a narrative on this one?

 

Spoiler

2018-19 NBA salary cap figures...
Salary cap: 101.869M
Luxury tax: $123.733M
Floor: $91.682M
Mid-Level: $8.641M
Mini Mid-Level: $5.337M
Room Mid-Level: $4.449M


Anderson was traded just prior to 2018-19 season (August 31, 2018)
Anderson had 2 years, $41M left on deal at time of trade.
Knight had 2 years, $30M left on his deal
Chriss was a $3.2M expiring
Melton was not under contract yet

2018-19 Training Camp Roster

*Salaries from bball-ref so may differ from the ones at the bottom

Carmelo: $2.3M (TRADED; January 22, 2019: Traded Carmelo Anthony, Jon Diebler and $1.56M cash to Chicago for Tadija Dragićević)
Bruno: Exhibit 10 (LATER WAIVED)
Capela: $15.2M
MCW: $1.2M (TRADED; January 7, 2019: Traded Michael Carter-Williams & cash to Chicago for a 2020 Top 55 protected 2nd round pick)
Chriss: $3.2M (TRADED)
Clark: $596K
Edwards: 2-way
Ennis: $1.6M (TRADED; Traded James Ennis to Philadelphia 76ers for the right to swap a 2021 2nd round pick)
Gordon: $13.5M
Gray: TC deal? (LATER WAIVED)
Green: $2.3M
Harden: $30.4M
Hartenstein: $838K
Knight: $14.6M (TRADED)
Nene: $3.6M
Paul: $35.6M
Tucker: $7.9M
Zhou: $506K (LATER WAIVED)


November 26, 2018: Signed Danuel House
December 4, 2018: Waived Danuel House
December 6, 2018: Signed Danuel House to a two-way contract

December 24, 2018: Signed Austin Rivers ($1.1M)

January 16, 2019: Signed James Nunnally to a 10-day contract
January 21, 2019: Released James Nunnally

January 21, 2019: Signed Kenneth Faried ($917K)

February 7, 2019: 3-team:
Houston traded a 2020 2nd round draft pick to Sacramento for Iman Shumpert
Houston traded Marquese Chriss, Brandon Knight, a 2019 1st round pick & a 2022 2nd round pick to Cleveland for Wade Baldwin, Nik Stauskas & a 2021 2nd round pick
Cleveland traded Alec Burks to Sacramento

February 7, 2019: Traded Wade Baldwin, Maarty Leunen, Nik Stauskas & a 2021 2nd round pick to Indiana for cash

February 22, 2019: Signed Chris Chiozza & Terrence Jones to 10-day contracts

March 13, 2019: Converted Danuel House from a two-way contract to a regular contract. (After lingering 2 months in the G League, how kind of Mr. Tilman!!!)

March 26, 2019: Claimed Trevon Duval on waivers from the Milwaukee Bucks

April 7, 2019: Signed Michael Frazier


Back to Ryan Anderson….
Ryan Anderson(2 years, $41M), De’Anthony Melton(rookie 2nd round pick) —> Brandon Knight(2 years, $30M), Marquese Chriss($3.2M expiring), 2019 1st round pick, 2020 2nd round pick, 2022 2nd round pick —> Iman Shumpert($11M expiring; not re-signed)

Wow, they went from a guy making $20M to a guy making $14M to a guy making $11M who would soon be off the books?!

That was a fluke. I don’t know how that happened.

All those minimum signings,
That was a fluke. I don’t know how that happened.

“Last year (getting under the luxury tax) was a fluke,” Fertitta said. “We were going to be in the (tax). It was an accident. I’m still trying to figure out how we got under. I was positive we were going to be in it by $11 million.”

“Whatever it takes!”
“Win at all costs!”
“Green light to bust the budget!”


https://rocketswire.usatoday.com/20...ets-luxury-tax-salary-cap-breakdown-analysis/
Houston’s payroll to start the 2018-19 regular season


Houston’s payroll before the 2019 NBA trade deadline


Houston’s payroll after the 2019 NBA trade deadline


MIND YOU, THIS WAS TILMAN’S OFFSEASON/SEASON AFTER GETTING TO THE WESTERN CONFERENCE FINALS!

 

IT mentions that for one, but it talks abotu throughout morey's tenure he was tasked with best bang for buck priority with les's budget. Now Les did pay tax once at least and the amount of money was much less s was par of wht it takes to spend in this league with the new billionaire owners like nets/clippers just raising the bar. But Les was cheap too, no doubt, he got lucky the money and nba economics isn't wht it is and I think Les would struggle too. Thats why now the guys coming in are deep pockets and understand you are building a franchise and investing and its a showcase asset, not something you nickle and dime and work on the mrgins.

Its funny you keep ignoring this:
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id...amn-turmoil-unsettling-vibe-surrounds-rockets
How many owners do you see get caught lying? take the mike and demand more after 2019 playoff loss in which he cheaped out.

Andhttps://spacecityscoop.com/2020/07/01/chris-paul-trevor-ariza-costly-houston-rockets/
who are you going to side with in basketball, tilman fertitta or Chris Paul? About cohesion, role players and whta it takes to win. have you paid attention to basketball history? Kerr, PAxon, fisher, kenny smith, horry multiple times, each year a role player or non headling player make vital winning plays in the playoffs. also each year champions are won by a bounce foul car or injury, there are no guarantees.

you see wht type of obscure goal post hes selling you, guaranteeing a finals? is there any team in hte league that can do that? no. You just when you have superstars in prime and a team that is showing special traits you go for it. We were no 1, we began to cheap out role players...sure espn and yourself will say they are non headliners, but basketball is about cohesion.

I wonder if in 93-94 you were sayin hakeem has lost 8 straight years, we have no otehr star ....why pay up?

More so, imagine if you are a milwaukee fan. You say Giannis won mvp last year, still lost 1-4 in the semis, still couldnt make his free throws, and you could even say that this year when they were 0-2 to the nets and looking gone. And you'd say Jrue holiday on a maximium contract post 03 years old? no thanks. Middleton on the max? no thnks....PJ tucker, 36 years old 0 points? no way, this isn't a championship recipe...luckily the fans their are wanting their team to go for it nad their main perespecive isn't is this financially worth it for the owner?
You hear GS fans cry abotu lacob's tax bill bc of kelly oubre last year? Or nets fans saying dont sign deandre for them, save yourself some money?

Bc thatst all that your plan makes sense for, savin tthe owner money....and the moves we made before morey left(maybe why he left) werei gnoring trade exceptions, draft picks, bird rights to contract( you do understnad its not abotu ariza, its about the contract..ariza turned to kelly oubre, kelly oubre and rubio turned into chris paul for hte suns...the suns wee in the finals this year, if your decisions held up...it wouldn't have been worth it)

and what about tilman who has admitted on quote that his basketball ops team was weak on the trade nadh pe pushed it through for westbrook?https://rocketswire.usatoday.com/20...tta-tells-final-hours-of-paul-westbrook-deal/

In that case, congrats on the last 3 years..you tilly and Luxury tax savings have been no 1 for 3 straight years, no wonder it makes sense to you.

And yes, Lebron, kobe, mj...you name it...they would all leave if you run a team the way you did in modern nba money...you're just out of your league or cyclcing mediocrity lke indiana pacers if you run a team that way. if thats what you want, i guess congrats?

 

@J.R. is the best at reminding my how much I hate Tilman.

He cost us a title because he only wanted to pay the LT if the title was guaranteed. Whose title is guaranteed? No **** you're willing to pay LT if we land Kevin Durant or something, that's not a realistic bar. We need you to pay the LT for an overpaid Iguodala or even a Danny Green, WITHOUT LOSING ANOTHER CORE PLAYER. You do that by accumulating late firsts and second rounders, developing your youth and using the F'ING MLE on ANY tradable asset and then swapping it for something that fits. It's not that hard. Add a full MLE signing to games 5 and 6 in 2018-2019, we have a different outcome when we come across the Raptors, who we would have crushed. We crushed everyone in the regular season including the Warriors, and we crushed everyone but the Warriors in the playoffs those 2 years. That kind of opportunity comes around once a generation.

It's really disgusting that he treats fans like morons when HE KNOWS ALL OF THIS. Morey told him, Harden told him, MDA told him. You must ADD, not SWAP and DUMP when you are within a HAIR of beating a team that has no more assets to add without losing someone. If he wants to win a title and Morey did it on his own, why didn't he fire Morey? Why didn't he not sign for the deal? We had the Warriors cornered and out of answers, and ANY owner willing to pay the LT would have taken the title and it would have been an all-timer, the exact opposite of an asterisk.

The audacity to lie (and it shows on his face) that he has no idea how they got under the tax lol. We know you don't have ay clue how these things happen, the issue is why is your GM dumping players? If that's not what you wanted, why are you smiling right now? Dumb f***.

When you decide to be "fiscally responsible" at that juncture, that's called being a cheap b*stard Tilman.

 

Your criticism seem fair and square were it not for one small thing. Tilman got robbed blind by the refs and silver in his first year as an owner.

You cant expect from any sane person to invest more money when he experienced it first hand that the fix is in and the game is rigged.

Would you buy a lottery ticket for the lottery you know is rigged?
Yeah, I dont think so...

 

Players and fans were robbed, not Tilman.

Tilman paid for a WCF ceiling and the team - which he had nothing to do with building - overachieved.

Oh and yes, I do blame him. There are millions of fans of every team who think their team's biggest loss was a result of rigging. It's so common on every NBA fan board, in every NBA community, there is always a significant portion of fans who believe it's usually rigged against them. That includes everyone from Oklahoma to LA and NY, big market, small market, all fans believe it's rigged against them, all of them have videos on youtube to show it.

So even if there were any truth to rigging, just pay up. If Dan Gilbert used this excuse, he wouldn't have a title. Instead, he ponied up the dough. Oh and if they are rigging it, they like the teams that pay more luxury tax. Those are their best customers.

 

Well you keep making these declarative statements like "Morey wouldn't have traded for Sengun" and "Morey doesn't value developing young players" that just doesn't line up to reality.....

The reason we kept Capela and not Morris or Patterson is because Capela was worth paying his contracts for, not because Morey doesn't "value developing young players". The reason we departed with decent young talent like Dillon Brooks and Deanthony Melton was cap related constraints imposed by the owner.

Your reality doesn't match what I saw.

And Morey would need a lot of luck with the constraints of finding a superstar without tanking and then build a championship team without dipping into the luxury tax.