Shams - Philly offered Simmons/Thybulle + draft compensation. Did we make the right deal?

The difference betwee Simmons and Giannis is Mamba Mentality. The two of them will never be great shooters but Giannis isnt afraid of failure, he isnt afraid to try. He isnt afraid of looking dumb for missing shots. A couple years ago Giannis won MVP but got roasted by Harden for having no skill, it was kinda proved in the playoffs cuz opponents like the Heat just built a wall and he couldnt score. Or they did Hack a Giannis and he missed all his fts. Giannis went to work in the summer on his shot, then he applied it in game situations. The result is he made 17/19 fts in game 7 despite all the cral Cp3 said.

He is mentality different from Giannis because Simmons clearly is afraid to look dumb, thats why he doesnt take shots. After he had that flame out he should have been on damage control, posting vids of him shooting fts and taking 3s. Instead he goes to Wimbledon, floods his IG with cars etc cuz he doesnt wanna get criticized. He has all the tools to be as good as Giannis but since his mentality is diff I dunno if he will ever improve. People here might say he still a good player and maybe thats the case, but a pg who cant shoot aint worth the max I'll tell you that.

It's laughable to compare Giannis and Simmons in the same sentence its like comparing Kobe and JR Smith.

 

We made the right deal, but I still wouldn't mind Simmons on this team. He does so many things well, I think a good coach should be able to get the most out of him despite his inability to shoot. Unfortunately, I'm not sure Silas is that coach. The difference between him and Westbrook is that Westbrook shot constantly, despite sucking at it. Everyone here complained about it, which is why it's so weird to see the embrace of KPJ. He is a SG that can't shoot, so they turned him into a PG. And he is better served as a distributer. He's a decent scorer, but it's not exactly efficient. While I am hoping for the best, I still see a pretty bumpy road ahead, and we still don't know if it's going to work out. If you're going to have someone who can't shoot, it's a nice consolation to have them do everything else at a superior level.

 

I've been saying this for a long time. Morey's aversion of the draft is due to his mistrust of himself picking a true superstar. Yes, it is partly because of the win now m.o. But the fact is, he doesn't believe that building through the draft is worth it. People keep excusing him that he never had a really high pick. But he also never traded up to get a high pick and he almost never kept any picks he got from trades. Basically, he treated draft picks as trade assets rather than a way to find talents.

I am almost certain that this is because Morey does not have reliable analytics data to judge non-NBA talents. There is no sure way to predict how a college player or a Euroleague player will perform in the NBA. But most importantly, I think he does not even trust the development of young NBA players. The only sure thing from the analytics POV is players who have already played several years of NBA basketball, having accumulated a large enough sample size of data. Even that, there is another dimension--the human factor--Morey seems to undervalue. He does not care much about chemistry and fit issues. He does not care much about character/attitude issues. He seems to believe that if you throw together enough talents, winning will follow.

That said, Morey is still one of the better GMs in the league. His strength is in asset management. He also is not stubborn. He recognizes his own mistakes and quickly tries to fix them, unlike some GMs who stick to their mistakes and double down. He is also very diligent in preparing for any opportunity and jumps on it when it materializes.

 

No kidding. JR is a much better golfer.

 

LOL. I get your point. But JR and Simmons are the exact opposites. JR is a chucker and he has no problem with looking dumb.

 

I said this earlier in the thread but I'm still not sure how as a GM you give up much for Simmons now. Before the playoffs you could talk yourself into him needing his own team with players who fit around him. But how on earth could you decide "this is a guy I'm going to spend a multi-year process to build around with players who specifically fit his style" after what he showed?

Similarly, you could make a case that Simmons should be more of a Draymond-type who fills a role on a great team as a versatile defender, etc., but even then, he's a switchable defender who is great in one on one matchups but I don't think he impacted the game overall on D like prime Draymond and if he's terrified of big moments how are you going to give up a lot to try him out in that role when he may completely disappear again in the playoffs? And with the latter, if you are going to buy that he could be a Draymond "last piece" type player for a contender that trade would have Philly more getting future picks/young players/etc when they are wanting to trade Simmons for someone who puts them over the top.

I think at this point Morey's best hope has to be that Simmons is almost salary filler and a flyer he'll need to include along with a Harden-level amount of picks/swaps if Dame or Beal are available and that no one else will trade a legit young franchise cornerstone for those guys.

Or maybe he could swap him for like Fox or call the Pacers back about Brogdon.

 

It really surprises me that a CJ/Covington/BenSimmons based deal hasn't happened yet.

 

I think if Simmons is to have success in playoffs it will be as a PF or C and not as a PG. Just because he has good handles and good passing doesn't mean he's a PG. I think he'll be best used as a Roll man on a PnR team, where he can catch the ball inside the 3pt line and either drive to the rim or pass out to whoever's man comes to double him; that is how his passing ability should be used.

(Goes without saying but he also needs to overcome his fear of missing FTs.)

I'm not dying to get him in Houston, but I think putting him alongside a C like Wood would be ideal; a center who has perimeter-player offensive abilities.

 

His contract is 4 yrs at Max level. Just wait out Wall and spend that kind of money on a much better player that can actually shoot. Morey is not getting a haul for this guy. He be lucky to get a first and a couple of serviceable players for salary matching to get out of his monstrosity of a contract.

 

I agree that's the most likely way to really utilize him on a championship contender, but if he can't shoot FTs and is terrified to shoot period it obviously can't work no matter how much he provides otherwise.

I also agree Wood would be the ideal type of a frontcourt player to pair with him. Philly would never have done this, but before the draft I would have done something like 23, the Detroit pick, the Wizards pick, and maybe next year's Nets/Heat pick along with Gordon, House and Augustin for Simmons. But now with Sengun and Garuba I'm more interested in developing those guys than taking a flyer on Simmons.

 

Philly's problem in trading Simmons now is that you can't sell on potential anymore. He has been in the league for 4 seasons and is on a max contract. Everybody has seen what kind of player he is. No more mystery. No more hoping of development.

Rebuilding teams like the Rockets would rather take a chance on their promising young players than take a chance on Simmons. If Simmons doesn't work out on your team, you are stuck just like Philly is stuck.

 

Thing is, Morey and Ainge have this thing (I guess Ainge stepped down, so "had" in his case) of needing to look like they prison-raped the other team in a deal.

"Four firsts, three first swaps, and decent players."
"I'll give you jack-s*** and you'll like it."
(click)

So now Morey has to let things simmer down before he tries again. Going into the season with Simmons on the roster will be awkward at best.

"Hey, Ben."

"Hey, Seth. Hey, Joel." Silence. "I said, 'Hey, Joel'."

(noncommittal grunt)

 

They say cocaine's a helluva drug? Try committing your first trade heist in the NBA as a GM. Once you get one under your belt you continue to chase that high, even if it tears you (and your franchise) apart.

 

From 2017 to 2020, Tilman forced Morey to use picks to get out of contracts and save money, only 2016 was for a win now move (Capela was 2015).

I disagree, the owner is the most important person. Les is the one who ultimately went with the Ryan Anderson and Eric Gordon signings as Morey has told multiple interviewers his job was to present the options to Les/Tilman.

CWood and Covington spent a few years wandering in the desert after being cut, especially the former. I don't think it follows that keeping them on the team when they were in their infancy would have turned them into the players they are today.

 

IDK..... I think Morey views the draft as a tool/means to an end, but not the only one. I seem to remember that Morey was constantly looking to move up spots in the draft, obviously less during the Tilman years. There's a contingent of mid to late first round picks that are scattered throughout the leagues playoff teams.

I think the need to win with Harden had become deafening around 2016 and we were running out of wiggle room.

 

Slanted views? which one of these things are disputable...ll make it easier for you:

But getting 90 percent of the production for 50 percent of the price ended up backfiring once they got there. The Warriors exposed Houston’s lack of versatility, most famously when the Rockets missed 27 straight 3s in Game 7 of the Western Conference finals in 2018. Morey was criticized for not having a Plan B when his team went cold from the perimeter, but he couldn’t have asked limited offensive players like Ariza and Tucker to take pull-up jumpers, break down defenses off the dribble, or hit cutters out of the high post. Building a team with established veterans who play fundamentally sound basketball on both ends of the floor costs a lot of money.

And that was the one thing that Morey never really had. According to the cap numbers at Spotrac, which go back to the 2010-11 season, the Rockets barely went over the luxury tax (just $3.65 million over) in their one season (2015-16) as a taxpayer. The Warriors spent $49.63 million in penalties over the last five seasons, while even the small-market Thunder spent $33.73 million. There was no excuse for Houston to not open up the checkbook. This is a franchise located in the fourth-biggest metro area in the U.S. that has had a superstar in the prime of his career. Alexander sat on his hands while Houston’s rivals went all in, counting on Morey’s ability to use advanced statistics to turn water into wine

This refusal to spend money became farcical once Alexander sold the team to Tilman Fertitta in 2017. Fertitta spent so much money ($2.2 billion) to purchase the Rockets that he may not have had the liquidity to go into the red to build a title contender. Houston was a laughingstock around the league for the amount of juggling it had to do to stay under the tax. The best example came at the trade deadline last season, when Morey used a future first-round pick to shed the salaries of Brandon Knight and Marquese Chriss. There was no basketball reason for the move. It was just done to cut costs. It’s not that Knight and Chriss would have helped the Rockets. But there were certainly a lot of better things that Morey could have used that pick for.

Houston also spent that season in a bizarre staring contest with Danuel House Jr. House is the kind of diamond in the rough that Morey routinely uncovered in Houston, an undrafted free agent on a two-way contract who would become a starting-caliber wing. The problem was that players on those deals can spend only 45 days with the NBA team during the season before their contracts have to be converted. Money in Houston was so tight that Morey had to send House back to the G League when he wouldn’t sign a below-market long-term deal. He replaced House with two players he signed off the street (Gerald Green and Kenneth Faried) before bringing him back right before the playoffs. It’s not like House was asking for the world. He signed a three-year, $11 million contract in the offseason. But even that was more than Morey could offer at the time.


Houston’s limited financial flexibility became an even bigger issue last season after the trade for Westbrook. With the team’s two best players costing a combined $76.7 million, it became almost impossible for Morey to fill out the roster while staying under the luxury tax. Morey and head coach Mike D’Antoni had to conjure up production from players other teams didn’t want. Jeff Green went from being cut by the Jazz to being a crucial piece of the Rockets’ small-ball attack in the playoffs. It was the same story with Austin Rivers, who had been on three teams in five seasons before landing in Houston, and Ben McLemore, who had one foot out of the NBA before the Rockets turned him into a 3-point sniper. All were more valuable in Houston than anywhere else in the league because Morey identified what they could do well and put them in roles that didn’t ask them to do much else.
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I don't get why this is hard to comprehend. Morey was doing a job in the confines of an nba owner. NBA is like a mom and pop busines, the way they are run varies from each franchise. So its lk you going to your favorite local restaurant tht got sold to a new owner who decided to water drinks, cut some cost on the margins and then you screaming at the manager bc of the new owners cuts...stand u to him, lose your job...

Well he did leave millions on the table...for a job where the guy said here take the money, win, don't have to have my child follow you around. Tad Brown did too..so did MDA, Harden, BZdelik, Westbrook, staff, role players...etc , you can see the common denominator

All I know is I want employees as blindly loyal as some of these rockets fans are to their owner, not even if its detrimental to the team. If harden and MDA aren't focusing on D...we call it out, If daniel House is getting too horny before game time, we call it out....but if the owner changed the budget which gives us a disadvantage compared to other contenders....nope, don't call it out or you hate the team!deflect blame, etc...remarkable logic.
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no, I'm fine attacking the ringer. The article I posted has specific facts, any dispute on those? Im not going to blindly listen to any of it, be it morey or tilman. And come to the conclusion of where the moves make actual sense.

The draft you are talking about ,morey choked. Royce white? morey choked...no one shoots .100 hes got plenty of flaws I'm happy to call out, but I'm not going to rewrite the narrative just to kiss tilmans ass. Everyone has faults, the main trajectory changed with our financial mandate when we had to start trading first round picks and players in the rotation for nothing but savings. then as you mentioned morey has made some misses, heck harden was a hof level production but we needed more d, same with mda...

its ok to criticize one aspect and not have iet be so black and white, the only place that doesn't work is espn/tmz and the jump.. Tilman 'first fans are a hoot man, but all is welcome on here. Landrys rockets fans, player only fans, senguns translator fans, open tent. cmon in.

 

Am i saying he can't catch and dunk? no I'm saying thats not what makes him elite. Harden and Lebron can Catch and dunk, but if we're going to have them run off hook and play off bal, that relaly isn't taking advantage of the gifts that make them elite. so thats wat I'm say.g Embiid I agree is a talent, but his strong point isn't running a pick and role, it his iso. its his post, his ability to draw teams and fouls. And hes a talent, a once in decade or more and you gotta run with it. He needs spacing and shooting, him and simmons aren't a good fit. They have had succes of CF bc they are talented, but its not optimal is what I' msaying.

but you do get whats what I'm trying to tell you, that simmons in a different role can be a different player. Thats what I'm saying that his role and fit in sixers is not optimal, in a different role via trade i can easily seeing him doing special things.
You yourself called him a dpoy, you called green a swiss army knife. smmon can do EVERYTHING he can, but is more athletic, can create off the dribble way better, and thats that. So a player like him who has a niche of a flaw, you have to build around uniquely but he can still be great.

Exactly why KD isn't a good comparasion, he had a jumper earlyon. He always was a shooter and scoring touch, simmons has always been an all around player . Hes better than draymond imo and can create much better but would need a team to invest in shooters around him and give him rope. I suspect the same thing about Lonzo this year. He was confined to a leash and a 3/d role and people can't see what he does, but this year if donovan does his ussual let em run offense he will show more than he could with the last team. Wherever simmon ends up but if the coach uses him right he has elite tools to make it worth it. Rondo still made a lot of impact, improved his shot as did kidd...none of them are direct comparasions to simmons although could play similarstyles. I simply think its more important to see how simmons responds this offseason at his age and even without that he still has value in a more suitable role.

 

I think the Rockets' biggest failure during the Harden era was pairing him with the appropriate superstar. That's partially on the front office, but is also in the hands of the basketball gods of which superstar becomes available and when.

The KD situation was a bit of both.... the season where we had the greatest chance of getting him happened to be during the turmoil over the firing of McHale.

 

Your arguments are now circular and repetitive and don't refute anything I stated. Green can shoot. Simmons can't shoot. You continuously avoid recognizing the impact of not shooting and what it even means and argue Simmons is worth his max contract. I'm out.