[Kevin Drum] If you hate the culture wars, blame liberals

And you are absolutely right when you say that music has continued after Beethoven. Strictly from the perspective of the fine arts, Classical music and Jazz are advancing and continuing strong. There was popular music in Europe for centuries while classical music was being cultivated. Classical music for the most part has always been obscure in favor of more popular mediums which is why I think its a little funny to say who should prop up who based on race when a lot of these European composers lived in relative obscurity to begin with. This is the way its always been dating back to the 15th century. In those times there was 1. Popular music, folk music 2. Church music that gave way to classical music. There were however classical composers like Bartok that would mix these two mediums. Specifically about the continuation of music through black people - once black slaves were indoctrinated in white culture, they began to adapt similar ideals. Another reason was that if they played African communal music they would be lynched. This is what gave way to the rhythms we call second line in New Orleans. It is African music adapted to a white conception of music. The music aside though, black people intellectually changed over time to be more like whites. We did this to them without a regard for their own heritage. This intellectual shift started to give value more toward the individual in music. A very western idea. This as well as literally the need to avoid starvation accounted for former African slaves becoming singular names in music. They were successfully able to bring African culture into mainstream America decades later without Americans even knowing that this music was all African at its core. It is a tremendous feat. Anyway, since the end of slavery, more and more black composers and musicians came into the spotlight or are remembered now specifically because of their new western attitudes and value systems in life. (western is not better and I actually think Africans were more pure in their approach) The problem I have is that black people are specifically looking for blacks in music with this specific white indoctrination in their approach because they themselves grew up in the west and our society at this point and time is culturally very similar to Europe idealism over other continents. America is a western country lets not forget that. So having said all this, there is an immense history of black music in the United States. Lots and lots of geniuses and styles. More so than any other time that I can think of since the Renaissance. This was a black Renaissance if you will and just because it happened more recently in the US doesn't make it any less important.I would implore black people to support the black artists right now in America in both classical and jazz mediums. This legacy spanning the last 160 years is African American heritage something black people should be extremely proud of. As we all should as AMERICANS. These mediums are dominated by mostly white people enjoying and discovering african american music. That is a problem. If you are focused solely on finding blacks of the past in the fine arts but do not support the current black artists of our time, the logic is extremely flawed because right now white people are in large part supporting african american fine art. Yes popular music and rap music today are an extension of African Americans but its not the whole story of the lineage. It would do a tremendous amount of good for the majority of African Americans to understand their musical roots and support the artists at the forefront of African American expression. It would also help these African American artistic voices who because of an absence of their own community supporting them tend to still struggle with recognition as whites obviously support other whites as well. For these reasons, I believe the kind of rhetoric we've developed in relation to music and race is not only deeply flawed and misinformed but hinders black people from succeeding in the arts and keeps the black population uninformed and suppressed regarding their own culture and potential to influence it. Who is really behind that? I have a hard time thinking black people are.

 

Do you think conservatives are writing these articles? Read any of the articles I posted. This is not the conservative voice. Now I have my questions about who is actually writing this because it definitely keeps black people suppressed. The articles are littered with easily disproved factual things and very questionable arguments at best. I wouldn't be surprised if white people were trolling with some of the articles. How do we know for sure? Its really not about the articles though. That all stemmed from the day this theory professor was trending on Twitter. The debate that day caused these kinds of things to appear and reading through the comments from people I really saw things from a different perspective. Keep in mind a lot of these comments came from uninformed white people. Again this was a really big scandal in the music world. North Texas has one of the top theory departments and he was a well respected theorist. That is specifically why Ewell did this to him and not someone somewhere else teaching Schenkerian Analysis. I also took offense to Beethoven being equated to Esperanza Spalding. There are too many geniuses to count in African American art. Esperanza Spalding while she is fantastic, when its all said and done will most likely be remembered as mediocre at best. I'm not sure why he feels the need to belittle a classical music icon like that. There are plenty of black people that are on the same level if not higher than Beethoven and by making this comparison it is in bad faith. I think Ewell knew exactly what he was doing when he said that and I want to know what the purpose was. I doesn't sound like much but I see it as systematically trying to bring a culture to a lower level when it is not needed.

It seems like these days the only way people can speak freely is by shaming other human beings. You can say literally whatever you want if you have those intentions at heart. How messed up is that? We all know how nasty places like twitter can be. My experience was watching people saying horrible things about this professor for doing his job. The thing is, no one knew what they were talking about regarding something this highly specific and yet somehow their shaming was the only voice. How can you actually have a debate when people say such hurtful things with utter disregard for institutions. I felt like it was a personal attack on me some of the things that were said and it made me think about all my close friends who care even more about classical music than I do. Its like it didn’t even matter what the subject was and people didn’t even care to find out. Just looking for the next thing to trash.What kind of reasoning is behind that? Just trying to cancel something else they will never use or understand in their lives ever because supposedly this all helps society. Do we actually think that thousands of generally very young people are all perfectly behaved with valid talking points and a high level experience on every subject just because they are part of the twitter mob? Everyone agrees its like walking on eggshells but people are entitled to use the most vulgar and hurtful language possible in the name of what exactly? Good? Where is the virtue in any of this? The thing is, liberals are behind black people. We were marching for George Floyd right next to black people. Musicians are by nature liberal. There are literally 1 or 2 conservatives I can even point to in my entire community. These are liberal institutions. Liberals attacking other liberals only pisses people off and nothing actually changes from it. Then conservatives come in and talk about how cancel culture is ruining America. That is their big talking point and we are still feeding them ammunition. Its not like republicans are going to change their thoughts from this. We both know that. If a racist rants at someone or calls the police on a black kid for doing nothing, cancel culture do your worst. I’m 100% behind you. Its just not everything is that. Some people scream racist things in peoples faces and some people are music theory professors. I just see the same reaction from people regardless of the circumstance or severity. There needs to be some kind of variance because that is just too much misdirected energy. That is an energy I just don’t want anywhere near art. There is a reason the professor was not upset at Professor Ewell and welcomed the debate but he was specifically upset at Twitter if you read the article. That tells you everything. Instead of having an actual dialog like I’ve actually had the privilege of doing here, twitter went nuts on him and nothing was accomplished at all. How many opportunities for growth will be stifled by this childish and myopic behavior.

I had to write a freaking thesis just to get my points across not because I wanted to but because we are talking about art history here and there is an incredible amount of nuance. Do you think every person attacking this professor has the same point of refrence? This is the only thing in life I really even know about. It got me thinking - how many other highly nuanced specialized subjects do people shame one another for without knowing the first thing about the subject. Its just not enough for me to say blanket statements like "beethoven is a symbol for whites" and accept it as a factual talking point. People just run away with these things in an act of some kind of artificial vindication instead of actually having a civil discourse and maybe learning something from the experience. Even the people who wrote these articles are incredibly misinformed and don't know the first thing about culture. Its blatantly obvious. Our world is getting dumber in part because everyone thinks they are right about everything with such entitlement. You can't say a lot these days but you can say whatever you want in the name of this entitlement. While cancel culture might be needed in some cases for sure, I think a lot of this stuff is extremely silly and I can't help but think white people are behind it in some effort to suppress blacks. Do you really think its a good idea to build a new society on the tenets of shame and guilt?

 

Again the professor isn't being attacked, he is attacking other people - he is the one filing a suit.

No one attacked Beethoven or any professor. The articles you posted do appear to be right wing propaganda. Sorry, you fell for it.

 

I actually witnessed this first hand on Twitter. You can either believe me or not. This has caused very strange ripple effects in the music community. I don’t know why I’d lie about that. It goes beyond some articles. Why do you think someone would file a lawsuit? The guy is disgraced and he’s just doing his job. What makes people on Twitter experts on what does? Are they entitled to that level of vindictiveness? And this is supposed to help society? What you are saying is no one attacked him. How do you know that and what was the lawsuit about? He never filed a lawsuit against Ewell as he was more than happy to discuss all of this with him. I just believe academic debates need to stay in academia where people know what they are talking about or they dissolve into stupidity and name calling very fast. That is all.

I always loved your troll work on this forum and I have to wonder if I’m a victim of that lol. I just cannot see how these articles are propaganda from republicans. And does it even matter when I hear about this all the time these days? 90% of my Facebook is musicians and it’s just a constant tedious back and forth now that I have no interest in taking part in. Either way the articles are a by product of what happened on Twitter that I saw with my own eyes. Can we agree the articles I posted are silly? Can we agree on that? And since it’s right wing propaganda then we can agree that Beethoven is not a power symbol for whites. Correct? Since it was republican propaganda after all. And why did you defend conservative propaganda talking points for the past few days?

 

The articles you posted are screaming how the left wants to cancel Beethoven, yet nowhere is there anyone suggesting that. I did a search on Twitter - nada. Nothing about anyone canceling Beethoven.

So what do you want me to say? There is no evidence of this professor being attacked or called a racist, there is no evidence of the left wanting to cancel Beethoven. How can I take this seriously?

I'm not trolling you - I am just dismissing the accusation for a lack of evidence.

 

Fair enough. I implore you to find out exactly why the lawsuit was filed. Why the professor addresses Twitter in his response above even Ewell. It is definitely talked about a lot in music but you don’t have to believe me. I’m of the opinion that branding modern music theory as racist is very misguided among many of the other things that were said by Ewell. This kind of language doesn’t bring people to the arts. It doesnt help African Americans connect with their history and it hurts black composers and performers. Schenker is a very small theory in the grand scheme of things often limited to Germany. It’s a stretch to go from that to all modern music theory. Modern music theory is probably more influenced by blacks the last 100 years than any other race. Ewell is telling his own people they had no part in the advancement of American music culture. Why would he do that? And if Schenker represents racism because of the German ideology behind it then anything from that time in Germany should be branded racist and discontinued in institutions. Not just music theory. Europeans accept it as history and knowledge even if they were hit the hardest by this German ideology because they value knowledge above destroying knowledge.

We were debating things that you specifically brought up outside of any article and I hope you at least understand my views when talking about elevating others over Europeans and why that was just not feasible for factors that had little to nothing to do with racism and more to do with African and Indian culture. You could argue blacks in Europe didn’t get a fair shake but there were few composers and some became very well known. I also hope you consider how many white composers were put in camps and prisons or dealt with occupation and starvation in their own countries. I hope you do not assume these composers were “privileged.”

The idea that these already very obscure musicians to start with were “elevated” is just extremely dumb especially when you consider what was happening in Africa and India at the time and that there was simply no one to elevate for cultural reasons. Is that so hard to understand? And let’s say black people listen to Ewell. They wouldn’t support the black artists of their time and we desperately need more black audience members especially in a black art form like jazz. But I guess it’s easier to look for evil 100’s of years ago in a tool used to analyze music and label that part of the reason black people weren’t supported instead of actually learning something and supporting your own musicians right now in the present.

It’s not like I wrote this much in response to articles. These are in large part responses to your questions. Anyway this part of the forum hasn’t been great for my health lol and I’m planning to move to Europe soon anyway where people actually think critically about things and value knowledge and institutions. I watched NYC go from a cultural beacon of the world to getting reduced to a tenth of what it once was thanks to commercialism and stupidity. The USA is cooked and we as a society are getting dumber by the day. I miss Obama he had all the right ideas. He wanted to address exactly the kind of things I’m talking about but just didn’t have enough time and Republicans will do whatever it takes to keep our population dumb and at war with each other. Especially when it comes to suppressing black people. Nice talking with you all the same.

 

No one is saying Beethoven was obscure and didn't deserve his place. He's amazing. I looked at the lawsuit - it looks frivolous and just aa PR stunt

You are posting a lot of things that go far beyond the article. I can't speak to your personal experiences on this BBS. Only to the facts and proof you post. If there is something on Twitter you are seeing, share it. If there is a quote, post it. But I just feel like you are extrapolating and inferring more than what is actually being written.

I never said white composers were privileged. That's a different argument and conversation.

But to say that European composers didn't benefit from European hegemony is nuts

 

So what is the conservative healthcare policy plan currently? The most likely scenario here is the side that uses culture wars rhetoric in replace of genuine policy positions on non wedge issues like healthcare, tax code etc is the side that needs it more to deflect from not having actual genuine policy ideas.

A poll about liberals shifting positions more than conservatives is natural order... You do know that right? Yes liberals are going to adopt "radical" ideas first. Liberals first were comfortable with far marriage and a years later, more conservatives shifted from hostile to lukewarm on the issue of gay marriage.


A 1% shift in voting by Black Americans amongst a backdrop of 90% still voting Democrat is somehow a narrative that Black people are waking up against "leftist" narratives?

And on "how to help the black community" the percentage of Black conservatives that buy into the racist narrative that Black people are inherently 10x worse at accumulating wealth naturally and not through centuries of systemic racism have always existed +/- a few percentage points of the entire black population. To pretend that a % shift in a single election cycle has any relevant statement on a trend is absurd and is grasping for straws.

 

If I can respond to Peggy Noonan and Kevin Drum I agree with her that Conservatives have good reason to be under threat because they are losing the culture war.

When Drum rights "for most people, losing something is far more painful than the pleasure of gaining something of equivalent value. And since conservatives are ‘losing’ the customs and hierarchies that they’ve long lived with, their reaction is far more intense than the liberal reaction toward winning the changes they desire." That is absolutely right. They are becoming out of touch with previous groups that they considered on their side, the military and big business isn't because those institutions have suddenly become woke it's because those institutions recognize that most of the culture has changed away from the traditional values that Conservatives held. For people who have long praised the wisdom of the market when you see Delta and Wells Fargo sponsoring Pride parades that is the wisdom of the market speaking.

Consider that the event that started the PRIDE movement, The Stonewall Riots, happened more than 50 years ago. If this was about corporations becoming woke why has it taken them so long to embrace the movement? Companies like Target aren't leaders in this, they are followers and they are following where the market leads.

Another example. This past Tuesday night the Twins had PRIDE night at Target Field. While Minneapolis is one of the most progressive cities these are the Minnesota Twins with following not only throughout the state but in the very red places such as the Dakotas, Iowa and Western WI. I know for a fact that there are Twins fans who aren't happy with the Twins PRIDE night so why would an MLB team that generally is very adverse about appearing political or doing things that would offend a portion of their fan base go ahead with PRIDE Night? It's pretty simple. They know that the amount of the people that might be offended are far less than the amount of people who like the idea that the Twins are recognizing PRIDE and paying lip service to that movement along with a giveaway of rainbow hued jerseys will get butts in the seats. It will be cheaper and easier than signing a high priced free agent pitcher. For the fans they might lose the numbers are pretty stark. The whole population of both ND and SD is less than the population of the Twin Cities metro area. And even then it's not like everyone in Sioux Falls or Fargo is against PRIDE night as even Fargo has a PRIDE Parade.

Noonan writes, "The cultural provocations that are currently tearing us apart do, certainly and obviously, come from progressives. And the left seems to have no prudent fear of backlash. They don’t seem to believe public opinion counts for much anymore." The problem with this view is that it's not the Left that are losing public opinion it's the Right. She's making the mistake that somehow there is some silent majority that actually still agrees witth cultural conservatives and that it's just wokeness that is why companies are celebrating PRIDE or against GA voting laws. That isn't supported by polling ,no longer by the market, and most definitely not by actual votes. While Republicans can point to certain gains among minority groups as noted those are still overwhelmingly with Democrats. Republicans can point to their success in holding onto much of Congress and most statehouses but the raw numbers are very much against him. While they might celebrate Trump getting 1% more of the black vote in 2020 he still lost the election by 7 million votes more than twice the popular vote margin of 2016. Also even when Republicans have held Congress they've lost the total popular Congressional votes.

Simply put, if not for our federal republican system it would be a rout.

I will agree there are certainly members of the Left who are pushing issues far beyond where most of the country is at. I think the push to do away with gendered pronouns is one and the people who were saying that there is nothing to celebrate on the 4th of July are others. As should be recognized by all the Left isn't a monolith and there is a lot of disagreement among even those who claim to be Left.

The overall idea that the Left is pushing the culture war far beyond what the overall culture wants isn't actually supported. The Right likes to portray it as this is all about Intellectual Elites using the media to push an agenda is why we are seeing so much "wokeness". If anything though this is about corporate and other institutional interests recognizing where the market is.

 

I think with an empathetic lense, I can understand the appeal to the Republican party amongst the White working class. For the blue collar white middle class and poor the GOP provides then with a sense of identity and purpose.

That's the main appeal of GOP rhetoric. It gives poor white folks a identity. It massages their brain into thinking of being part of some inherent good that is graced by god. Hence why these people are very sensitive to a critical perspective of American history because it attacks their core identity in their eyes.

The GOP is really good at giving the white working class a identity to unite around and that's a powerful thing especially when the GOP can frame it with that identity losing ground to leftists and migrants.

 

Another thing that I have seen brought up is the "Defund the Police" movement and attitudes towards destruction from rioting is frequently conflated with the culture war on both the Left and the Right. I'm not sure that these issues are the same as the overall culture war and while there are some overlapping issues such as attitudes on race. I'm not sure they are the same.

There are many people who fully support things like LGBTQ rights but do not agree with defunding the police. I know first hand there are many black and other minorities who don't agree with defunding the police and very critical of the damage from riots following the killing of George FLoyd and others.

It's understandable why the Right would want to conflate these issues but I think it's a mistake for the Left to conflate them.

 

What unites the right constantly shifts. Nearly every issue the right supports is hypocritical if you scratch the surface.

There are only two core values that American conservatives hold dear; limited federal government and white supremacy.

...and it's an easy argument to make that limited federal government bends at will. When those two principles are at odds with each other, it's the white supremacy value that wins out. For example, federally funded border walls that require imminent domain powers. War on drugs? No resistance to ramping up federal funding to put the fight to mostly brown skin people.

Even capitalism and rugged individualism have ebbs and flows. The Tulsa race riots clearly demonstrate that those concepts only apply when it benefits whites. When non-whites benefit from capitalism and rugged individualism, historically that becomes a problem too.

(As an aside, behind the scenes, 1%ers always work hard to retain their wealth at the expense of everybody else. Communists, Fascists, Capitalists, etc. all universally abide by this law. That's not uniquely American.)

 

Disagree. The notion that economics was the driving factor and that Africans were merely collateral damage is wrong.

"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth."

Savannah, Georgia, March 21, 1861
By Alexander H. Stephens
Confederate Vice President


American conservatives have repeatedly demonstrated that they are willing to economically suffer themselves if the white supremacy "moral truths" are at odds. If whites simply needed to enslave people to help industrialize the south, why didn't they just enslave other whites? ...but that didn't happen.

To be clear, I'm not saying white people are racist. I'm saying white supremacy has been an unwavering core value of the conservative platform.

 

But morals can change because of economics.

I can read that and think it was a justification of slavery but the underlying premise is still economics.

Can you give these examples of them willing to suffer economically at least the people who actually have the most to lose.

 

He makes it abundantly clear his position has nothing to do with economics.

"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man"

His whole speech he dubs himself that this truth, of white supremacy, is the "foundation" and "corner-stone" of the new government. I'd love to hear how you feel that is out of context and is somehow related to the economy.

He later states:

"Some have propounded the inquiry whether it is practicable for us to go on with the confederacy without further accessions? Have we the means and ability to maintain nationality among the powers of the earth? On this point I would barely say, that as anxiously as we all have been, and are, for the border States, with institutions similar to ours, to join us, still we are abundantly able to maintain our position"

So even in his most rousing speech, he says the south can "anxiously" ... "maintain." That's the most optimistic way he can spin it. Break even. This isn't about improving their economic situation. It's about ceasing control from the North and exercising power over blacks. It's about establishing the worlds first government based on white supremacy. He says it himself. Not my words.

 

Its words on a page how is that abundantly clear?

And this is one guy how are you using that to know what everybody else's motivations where?

Maybe this guy was a kook who actually believed that but was a front for the people who benefitted from it economically.

I am not saying that some put morals over economics but this is not proof that it was the prevalent sentiment.

This is called confirmation bias you are latching on too one example and claiming it was all of the south's motivations.

Its a form of propaganda.

 

I'm giving you one extremely credible source that is well documented and undisputed. There are literally countless. If the words directly from the VP of the confederacy don't rise to the level of factual evidence, then there is no basis for which we can have a reasonable conversation. If we have no common set of facts, then any argument is based on emotion and conjecture. Personally, I try to avoid those pitfalls.

History is full of plenty more examples. I just gave you one.
The KKK wasn't filled with economists.
Nobody touted the Jim Crow laws as a way to save money.

Nobody justified building the boarder wall as a cost savings measure, at least not as the predominant motivation. Trump said it was to save us from being raped. We diverted funds from the military and confiscated private land. Perfect example of how we made financial sacrifices that supports racist intentionality.

 

You are giving me something written from one guy.

I am not even debating what he actually believed (we don't actually know) but you are trying to claim the entire cause of the civil war from the south's motivation on what 1 guy wrote.

Plenty of people have justified building the Wall as a cost saving measure, its at the top of the talking points.

Anti immigration people are always going on about the cost of illegal immigrants on social services and how they affect jobs and pay on on jobs.

https://www.factcheck.org/2009/04/cost-of-illegal-immigrants/

https://thehill.com/blogs/congress-...f-illegal-immigration-to-taxpayers-is-growing

This was just said by the AG of Texas.

https://www.texasattorneygeneral.go...ts-texas-taxpayers-over-850-million-each-year

• Texans pay between $579 million and $717 million each year for public hospital districts to provide uncompensated care for illegal aliens.
• Texans paid $152 million to house illegal criminal aliens for just one year.
• Texans pay between $62 million and $90 million to include illegal aliens in the state Emergency Medicaid program.
• Texans paid more than $1 million for The Family Violence Program to provide services to illegal aliens for one year.
• Texans pay between $30 million and $38 million per year on perinatal coverage for illegal aliens through the Children’s Health Insurance Program.
• Texans pay between $31 million and $63 million to educate unaccompanied alien children each year.

 

The 2nd in command wrote very eloquently exactly what he believed. Not sure why you have a hard time ingesting that. Further, if you are honestly debating that slavery had nothing to do with the civil war, well, again, there isn't much else for us to discuss.

But if his own words isn't enough, our US Constitution said blacks only count as 3/5 of a man.

You are on very unstable ground debating this point. lol. Slavery happened. The slave holders were monsters. You are defending that? Not sure where you are going with this line.

Your refusal to acknowledge it and your continued defense that somehow economic factors prevailed over humanistic factors is exactly the mindset of why we are having these culture wars. Just eat the crow and say it was bad and horrible. Stop with the defensive posture. THAT is exactly the problem.

I have no doubt "plenty of people" have tried their very very best to polish that turd.

Trump, 1st in command, dismissed an entire country as rapists and tried to convince us that we should be scared of them. He didn't say anything about cost.