Shams - Philly offered Simmons/Thybulle + draft compensation. Did we make the right deal?

Rockets choosing not to pick up Avery Bradley team option so he can be used as future asset is not surprising.

 

You keep trying to avoid the issue and pretend that it's just a narrative. Suit yourself.

I do admire your loyal fandom to the guy. We all have our favorite players. I don't hate Simmons. Just don't think he is a franchise player you can build around. I would love to have him if my team already have two superstars and plenty of shooters.

BTW, all the accomplishments you listed are voted awards, except the number of steals. We all know that voted awards are narrative driven too. We'll see. The embarrassment of this year's playoffs should finally motivate him to fix his shooting. If it doesn't motivate him, then nothing will. But he still has the max contract to enjoy. Not sure what the next one will be.

 

Fandom?

LOL

Rockets are in desperate need of LENGTH and much better defense, adding Simmons and Thybulle in Harden trade would have provided just that.

 

Why is oladipo worth that? For starters from before the season him and his agent and miami made a mutual interest clear. To add to that, he was an expiring contract and they had a way to sign him outright this offseason, a pathway to do it at least. Therefore we had very little leverage, not to mention he has been injured, a lot, before the trade, after the trade. So, it makes a lot of sense why oladipo at his age, injury, contract situation, contract demands had very little value. Simmons and oladipo are not comparable. Simmons is 24, produces in an all star level every year. Oladipo is a1-2 time al lstar.
I think we all agree, Simmons obviously has a glaring hole. But there is no one who can be the 'single' star in todays nba. You can force it and lose the star just like harden. Its about finding complimentary and a cohesive team. I'd say Ben simmons is like D. Green, elite playmaker, big man can play high post or pg, elite athlete, elite defender. Give him 4 shooters or one Roll guy and you can see him 18-20/10/7 or 8. But Embiid is not the best fit and of course he needs to improve his shot for it to be effective in the playoffs. the hope is his shot form isn't broken and that he still has time, shooting is one thing you can get better at even in you 30s.
So Oladipo and SImmons aren't really comparable in their past or their future projections and thats the hope that Simmons can at least bring in 2 which I thought. ITs not a hill I am dying on, as I said with our timeline, tanking so on, it makes sense to try to clean hosue. But at the same time, especially the levert and allen flips reeks of typical tillman trying to find expiring.

As for KPJ, he hadn' played a game for the cavs all year. He was already growing frustrated, they already stopped developing him. So remember with a terrible roster he had ntot played a single minute. Any trade they made or relaly just enough time and he is going off the rockers. He has had a history of messing up in college so on and was before considered a lottery level talent. So sure, its what happen, but no it wasn't some part o the package that we can give credit for or pretend was intentional.

like i said, I'm fine with the way things work out. I think as usualy we take assets for money savings under tilman, adn the nets pick aren't ideal, the milwaulkee picks aren't ideal, but we have a lot to play with. Trading them may be the best thing but probably next season and once we get walls contract out of the way hopefully we're building more and more pieces

 

You still don't get it? What good is it to add length and defense when you don't have anyone to take over the offense?

I brought up the trade packages. You just swept it under the rug and say "it's a given any package would include picks." Oh yeah, but what picks? It a huge difference. We already knew that Morey wasn't willing to give up unprotected picks. If we got Simmons and Thybulle and some crappy picks, we would be stuck in mediocre treadmill. You see, I don't disagree that Simmons is a very good player. So good that we would likely not have our chances for a top 4 pick this year and we wouldn't have all the unprotected Nets picks and swaps all the way to 2027. And we would be stuck with another 40M a year contract besides Wall's.

Think about this. If back in 2016 people knew what Simmons would be what he is after FIVE years being a pro, would he still be picked top 4, let alone #1?

 

Now the thunder just took on kemba walkers contract for the 16th pick...
Thats a small, small market team compared to us, btu thats what atlanta did and thats what rebuilding teams do. Collect assets at all cost. Trying to save big and expirings i think was standard for 90s/00s owners who bought in inthe 100s of millions, now the par has raised and thats a big disadvantage for us

 

I've read through the thread and I think you are making this narrative up in your head. The argument has nothing to do with how his accomplishments is a negative. The negative issue with Ben Simmons is that he has not improved his offensive game his whole time in the league. Offensively he is the same player he was 5 years ago.

Defensively, he is a stud, great player. I'd love to have him in my team as a third or fourth option. He obviously brings that value of being a good decision maker and playing DPOY defense. The problem is that you were trading James Harden away. Thybulle/Simmons/Maxes + 2-3 FRPs (some protection), was not a great package for James. It was a decent package (it wasn't garbage either), but it was a not a great package.

The Nets package pretty much is a gamble. Looks like a shitty package now, could end up being a shitty package later, or could end up being a freaking great package. Who really knows. If individuals are not gamblers and like playing it safe, then they hate this package and will continue to talk down on it for the next several years. Those picks though, they have some value, how much, who the hell knows at this point, but they have value. It's really a wait and see type of deal since no one can predict the future.

Many wanted the safe package, which would be Simmons, after all, he is still a DPOY/All Star player. However, that's all the package was, safe. Simmons will likely not get you much in a separate deal, because he gets paid a **** load of money and he doesn't necessarily bring that franchise player value to any franchise that may trade for him. Sure, he is young, but in five years he has done 0 to improve his offensive game. The fact that he can't hit free throws is ridiculous. Even Giannis, for all his faults, still tries to take jumpers and also works on that part of his game, although it seems he will never get any better, but at least he tries.

Ben Simmons will not attract other superstars to come play with him either. Ben Simmons likely makes Houston a 8 - 10 seed type of team. Maybe. Quite frankly, I didn't want that. I am not happy about Dipo, but who the hell cares, I like the 4 picks + 4 swaps. Maybe Simmons develops an offensive game some day and becomes the total package and you'll be able to shove it in our face, but as of now, he was the safe pick.

True, but trading James Harden for him would not have been a good deal in my eyes. Maybe if Morey had grown some balls and upped the pick compensation, but he tried to get cute and lost.

The narrative fits. He is great defensive player that cannot be relied on as an offensive weapon. We aren't playing in the days when he could get away with this ****. NBA offenses are too potent and defenses will easily take away the paint. Ben is a liability.

I certainly think he is worth a lot of money and for the right situation, he could definitely work. However, the way the cap works, it makes it very difficult to pay a player like him. Similar to Rudy Gobert. Similar to Giannis. These are players that will give you great numbers in the regular season, but can be stopped come playoff time, which really sucks if you are trying to win a championship. Maybe if Simmons got lucky like Draymond Green to play with a great offensive backcourt, maybe he would look a lot better, however, even Draymond Green can give you points on occasion and be clutch (even hit free throws).

EDIT:

I forgot to state how incredibly unlucky the Rockets were. We did not have a desperate franchise with assets looking for a player like Harden. @DreamShook knows all about our franchise being unlucky at the wrong time. Every ****ing time.

• New Orleans got lucky with Ingram/Ball/Hart + Picks since Bron was telling the Lakers to trade the farm for AD.
• New Orleans got lucky with Bledsoe + picks since Milwaukee was desperate to make Giannis happy.
• OKC got lucky with Shai + picks since Kawhi was threatening to sign with the Lakers otherwise.

 

I'm not really buying this. They had to attach assets to dump Melo for Schroder and that literally was to dodge the tax. They could have just absorbed Schroder into cap space right?

Also, I don't really get talking about this in terms of Ryno, etc. Like we were going to wait until Ryno got to his final year and flip him for an equally bad player with more years and hopefully pick up an asset and keep doing the same thing while we were trying to stay atop the West?

If we're below the cap and can take on bad deals without having to send out salary (who knows if we will, though) that's probably going to be more valuable than having Bradley as a trade chip anyways.

Let's see what he signs for.

 

Yea i think this playoff and his adjustment next season will be very telling. Hes in the cross roads going into 25 so he should start embarking on his prime in the next few years. Not being able to play at the end of the game would be absolutely devestating for his value. His form looks fine to me, he doesn't have awkward hitches, his elbows are in line. It seems mental. Which is odd bc the guy is performing and playing at the highest level each night with tens of thousands of fans watching him, there really are no 'easy' nights. But one way or another to earn his keep as a max plyyer, hes gotta get it down. at least teh free throws. Many times, people forget with a flaw like his that he is clcose to elite on every other facet of the game. You won't find many 6'10 guards who have elite handles, elite athleticism, Vision, Defense. He has a niche so you have to surround him correctly, not as a traditional star, but with the right system he can be very special. He sitll needs to improve his Ft. Thats probably the biggest red flag and if he doesnt improve tht this offseason or make good enough headway then its a tough situation

 

Not equally bad player, gives you flexibiltiy to match contracts. that was the use of resigining iman shumpert, that was the use for even ariza. Be it with a pick or anyting else, the point of keeping the assets alive especialyl when you are over the cap is to give a vehicle to add talent. It isn't guaranteed, but it gives you options when you're at the cap that you can contineu to build upon vs no options on the other side.

We flipped Ryan for knight, but then we went and traded knight that season while giving up a 2019 first round pick just to get under the tax. OKC, a way worse market than ours and an owner who doesn't tout his networth as it isnt as high as the rockets owner, has paid much more tax than us. Once again, we were in our 'stars window' and saved went and used assets that could be used to help including those contracts to match salaries and picks to get talent, instead we went for cost cutting to the point in 2019 we traded or cut two players who were in MDA's 8 man rotation for savings and nothing else.

We just took on expiring contracts with no potential to do anything but just save money.

The big one in the air is KElly Olynk and how we handle that. With the cap floor and depending on if we get our top pick we should have a decent amount to offer him and once again I get he doesn't fit our timeline, but he provides an avenue for talent or assets later on on oppose just to losing him for nothing

 

If Simmons did not have those flaws, he would be untouchable - certainly not have been available in any trade this early in his career.

Like Dragic and Lowery, Wood was able to develop his game to All Star consideration level after 5 seasons as a pro. And believe it or not, Wood is still developing.

Tate is 24 and his 1st season in NBA is on all Rookie team.

Mario Elie, Bruce Bowen, PJ Tucker, PatBev, Whiteside, etc. had to play overseas or lower leagues for years before developing enough to successfully stick in NBA.

And I wholeheartedly agree, system, support and role matters.

Olynyk was a backup stretch 5 specialist before he came to the Rockets and surprised everyone by redefining his role as a playmaking big.

At ripe old age of 30.

Porter potential not maximized in CLE as an undersized off ball SF.

Coaching matters.

Both Silas and Lucas are renown player development coaches. Lucas helped guide a troubled Porter recently in his transition from SF to PG as well as his off court troubles. Lucas helped Clint with his abysmal FT issues so he would not be a liability in crunch time. Lucas (and MDA) revitalized and empowered Ben McLemore who before that was almost out of the league.

Silas 5 Out system would have weaponized Simmons, especially in efficiency, just like this system weaponized Russ (and Jeff Green) under MDA.

It's silly to unequivocally state that this is final stage of evolution for a young player like Simmons who very likely has another decade of career remaining.

But point is moot, Simmons was not traded to Rockets, did not want to be traded to Rockets and will not be traded to Rockets.

 

These are small moves that do not matter in the grand scheme of things but absolutely show that the Rockets will not be competitive with Tilman as the owner.

 

First of all lets get one thing clear Simmons is not producing at an all star level every year esp this year. Lots of people are criticizing him and he gets benched in closing minutes thats not what you do to your all star. You are talking about Dipo AFTER he stunk it up here, but prior to that he was good enough Tillman and co. were billing him as the major piece in the Harden trade. People here said he was easily worth a FRP even if he was already an expiring. So that shows you the trade value of players can change drastically once you get him. Chris Paul is a multi allstar for most of his life and he cost a fortune to acquire. 2 yrs later he cost a fortune to freaking unload. So dont tell me how much Simmons value used to be cuz now he sucks and its at an all time low. If he was on the Rox it would be even lower cuz he would have John Wall and Christian Wood over Seth Curry and Embiid. I'm not saying Simmons wont have value, I'm just saying its dumb to use Jrue Holiday as the benchmark.

On KPJ, why does it need to be intentional? The point is we only got KPJ due to the Harden trade. Do Cause and Effect, thats just common sense. KPJ is an unintentional part of the package cuz if we did the Simmons trade we wouldnt have KPJ is that not clear enough? Intentional or not doesnt matter, what matters is the reality of the situation. If somebody runs over your wife and kills her, the intention of the driver doesnt change the fact he killed your wife, right? So regardless whether Rox GM was a genius or a lucky buffoon he still got KPJ due to Harden trade to the Nets. If he got Simmons instead, no KPJ. End of story.

 

Yea he is. He is an all star with a flaw. Draymond green was an all star in his career, you can't run a team through him. Gobert is an all star this year, you' cant run a team to him.

There are many ways to add value. Ben simmons has been an all star 3/4 years and hes not really a fan favorite, he got in each year from the coaches vote so they see that he is an absolute elite athlete, elite defender 1-5, elite playmaker. He does those things at levels very few people in the league can. He has a glaring hole, one that particularl is unsuitable for Joel Embiid too so he doesn't have an offense run through him. ITs not hard to see with differeny system of cohesion him putting up really special numbers. I say that knowing what he can't do, but accepting and repsecting what he does do at an elite level. Obviously for him to get to that level as you said, hes going to have to hit his free throws and not be a liability, but the reason everyone plays him and hes effective elsewhere is bc he does everything else elite and he is only 4 years of playing time and is under 25. Its not crazy to suggest he continues to improve because he doesn't have a broken shot, maybe a broken mentality or approach towards it. CAn it be fixed? Sure. Will it? thats what well see. And I do believe he'd be a much better fit with wood then embiid. Wood is not primary back to back, he a good spot up shooter, good alley oop finisher, can roll as well. Wall is not a problem, he barely plays.

I'm not talking about Dipo after he stunk it uphere. The entire 19-20 season, he average 14 points playing under 20 games. in 19-20, 18 on 42 percent, under 36 games. Thats maybe slightly better than he did here. You'd have to go back to 3 years back for his best year and the year before he was just 'promising'. So he had one solid season, been injured and inconsistent for the past 3 years, and he let out that he wants to be in miami and miami has a pathway to sign him out right.

Only people billing him was tilman and their delusions that we were still a top team. But the only consistent thing we have seen is expiring or tradeable contracts.

Chris paul cost us a fortunre to get? we got him for role players and one pick. Why did we trade him? An owner said he pushed it through and leaked they were the worst contract, meanwhile the team was cheapened out to where even chris paul came out and said it was the lack of trevor aiza.
-We traded beverly, lou will, motrez and a first for chris paul. anyteam would take that...any team for a star pg. He had one injured year, but before that tilman put it out that it was teh 'worst contract hes seen in businses or sports' and over reacted and pushed it through. That pick was omari spellman, Beverly is still beverly, Lou williams has continued to age, Montrez is still a 6th man on a mid level. That deal was a steal, are you kidding me?

Yea the intentino does matter. For your totally unrelated murder via vehicle, intention is the differentce between involuntary manslaughter and a murder charge. SO now, back to basketball. Yes the intention bc it wasn't part of the trade. He hadn't played one minute, not exactly a guy they are working on developing and if any moves that offseason he could've had a burst or he could've thrown a fit if he kept going another month without seeing hte floor on a losing team. Either way, we agre eit worked out for us. but it wasn't apart of the trade.

 

I get that. The original point about linking resigning Kanter to do these moves is kind of off or happenstance and it's especially off to try to apply it to the Rockets not keeping salary on the books to match trades. They are two separate things. Like thinking Tilman should have paid big tax bills to keep extra salary on the books because that's the only way to potentially improve the roster with a team over the cap is one thing. Trying to link that to OKC now serving as a weigh station for salary dumps is a stretch. Though I understand the enjoyment for some to link any positive move another NBA franchise makes to prior decisions by Tilman to not pay the LT.

 

Simmons on pace tonight for a nice triple-single.

 

I get the narrative on tilman is negative, but why do people have some personal victim complex about it that he didn't get a fair shake? I think most people were happy when he became owner, as I was, becaus les was giving it up to a local houstonian who apparently was touted as bigger pockets. Then not only did he do the opposite, doing embarassing moves that no contending team does. you've metnionedthe ariza thing, i guess you and chris paul can disagree, i've mentioned they didnt replace him with anyone during this time which matters when the par of hte league continues to grow. Worst off hes lied about it, talkign about trading the pick to get under the cap was an accident so on and so forth to this very day that we went all in, we didn't. we all know it. but its akin to harden only fans going out of their way to take away any negatives that some people just for some reason can't take crap on tilman that he earned himself. no one, NO one gets in this game to either cheer or jeer an owner, we mostly don't talk about an owner. His own actions got that, why make exccuses for the guy. Are you a season ticket holder? he raisd prices on us during all the cost cutting moves too.

Its not the onnly way to improve a roster over the cap, but our team was built with assets in 2018 just to do that. To do it otherwise is rare and thats not where we were with our bird rights, with our tpe, with our mle, or even draft ipicks as assets(all of the listed here were either used to cut cost or ignored entirely)

Okc is just an example. They are a smaller market, cheaped out on the tax before as you have cited, and then learned their lesson as they paid it anyway and now made the adjustment-which is hopeful we may do the same- and now like atlanta are two teams that hvae good amount of assets by taking on any contracts.

Spurs just took on Dell as sa minority owner. Our owner has cited he wouldnt out of pride when we saw him cut cost. I get the personal POV for that, I do, but at the same time the whole city suffers at the mising and benevolence of one guys ego and issues. Its been terrible for rockets fans, i guess tillman fans can continue to do gymnastics to pretend he hasnt done a terrible job and worse off lied about it to us. a difference from when KRonke's son took over denver, made some mistakes then publicly stated he needed to learn and made mistakes vs Daryl went all in for harden, and i dont know how we got under the tax, so on and so forth.

 

Simmons did it! Triple single!

 

Stop. Seek help.

Maybe you think that Wall Simmons Thybulle and Wood are a championship contender but reality says otherwise