Shams - Philly offered Simmons/Thybulle + draft compensation. Did we make the right deal?

He is 24. The problem is, he is still playing like he is 20. His growth is a flatline.

 

I knew from the day that Rob Gray sent LSU and Simmons home with a fat L when they came into town that he was not that guy.

 

I'm surprised that people who previously thought we should get Simmons have now changed their minds. We knew who he was all along.

I, for one, also question his desire to be one of the best players.
That's something most people undervalue when it comes to players. Some players are fine with getting the max contract due to their talent, while the greatest players actually want to be the best players. The difference between a random max player like simmons and a guy like James Harden is monumental. But they get pretty much the same money. It seems like that's enough for Simmons.

 

I'm fine with his salary by itself. You have to spend cap room on something.

The issue is Ben's very serious limitations AND paying him $35-$40mm AND he's going to be an FA in a couple of years who could look to leave right when OKC owns our draft for a few years AND the opportunity cost of not getting the upside of the draft package we got.

If people liked Philly's package better, I disagree, but I'm okay with that. The hyperbole that it was an objectively drastically better package than the Nets package was nuts, though.

I always wanted and still wished we could have found a way to turn Harden into MPJ, though.

 

I was joking. A certain poster — I won’t name names — has mentioned his age 17,346 times in this thread.

 

I'm going to post it when I find it. I remember it was around 2019 but I swear it was something of a topic where Simmons scoffed at the notion he needed to improve on his jumpshot. One thing that IS evident to a lot of people in the know (e.g. former teammates and former NBA players) is that Simmons has been shooting with the wrong hand. JJ Redick, Jalen Rose, etc. have all came out and said this and, yet, Simmons hasn't been willing to try to shoot with his right instead of his left.

I'll say another thing about Simmons--the dude is scared of fail. Mental midget might be too harsh but he has a healthy dose of fear of failure. If the guy can shoot 3s in practice, as his teammates have said in his defense, then what's the blockage preventing him from taking 3s in game?

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29074004/ben-simmons-hears-talk-process-not-public-experiment

 

I was wrong about Simmons, I really didn’t think he was that afraid to shot. I could live with him not being a 3 point shooter while being an elite defensive force and a point center.

However he is clearly terrified of shooting and that kind of makes him not a max player.

 

Yeah. What's wrong with the "he is still young" argument is that you have to put it in context.

Saying that a 4-year-old kid is "still young" sounds fine, until you see that he is behaving like a 4-month-old baby.

 

How many more wins do you have if you take that Simmons / Allen deal and "showcase them".

Are you still the worst record or in the top 3 ?

Did you rise (fall) to #8?


Then there's the FACT that Morey wasn't offering unprotected picks or swaps - He wanted protections and that was one of the major hangups on getting that deal done.
Then there's the FACT that you weren't getting 4 picks , 4 swaps and Simmons. You were going to get 2 protected picks , two protected swaps & Simmons.
You weren't going to swap Simmons for 2 unprotected picks and 2 unprotected swaps from another team. There were going to be protections .... and who knows what contracts you'd have gotten in return ....

I feel like the Nets deal is the better one , That's an old team with a whole lot of miles on the tires .... Their clock is going to run out sooner than later - the Sixers clock probably goes beyond that 4 year window.

7 years with no protections , 4 years with top 4 protections .... then Oladipo for Olynyk and you already flipped Allen for a first and the potential to keep your own top 4 pick can't be understated.

 

4 month old baby that has earned NBA ROY, 3 NBA All Star 1st team + 1 3rd team, 2 All Defense 1st team, led NBA in steals, candidate for DPOY last 2 seasons?

The context of his age is that he has accomplished above in just 5 seasons.

Simmons is 2nd best player on 6ers team that is ranked #1 in East.

2nd best player does not mean 2nd best scorer.

Would CF be pissing and moaning if the player that was missed out on was Rudy Gobert instead?

Gobert cant shoot a 3 to save his life, a star that plays the least amount of minutes in postseason, gets pulled in crunch time especially vs. switch everything defenses.

But he is still a 3 time DPOY and the 2nd best player on Jazz team that was 1st in the West.

I'm just shocked that I have to spell this out on CF, the level of BBIQ on this board has dropped precipitously to be replaced by snark and knee jerk.

And I'm not indicating you @Easy - simply a general observation.

 

Those are all the good arguments for this one. I just think the narrative on Simmons is too simplified and doesn't consider assets and we dont have to keep them. I am on the other hand pretty disappointed with the return. Particularly th allen and levert flips who, to your argument, I don't believe raise it anymore than oladiopo or kelly, but still provide better tradeable assets.

Where is the fact of morey refusing unprotected? Didn't see shams say it or overloked it. i do think simmons could get you two, and if showcased more.

For the nets deal, there just isn't one tangible piece. The swaps in the early years like 2021 are just to make the trades sound better. While I do see great value in picks as assets, I'm not betting that brooklyn won't fare better than us. They have a desirable market, an owner with a blank check, new facilities and 'culture', branding. Just how irving kd appeared out of no where, I wouldn't be surprised of nother star wanting to go there especially if you want to play in NYC but not deal with the Dola.n. I can see it favors us towards teh end, but a whole lot has to go our way for that to work out. The milwaulkee pick was also a bad deal imo. Allen is someon you can keep and get a mid round, at his age heck he'd still be a lottery pick if he left this year and hes a big whose not offensive, he wouldn't have held up our lottery race much.

We were in a tough position, but some of that was our doing. When we decided to 'make it uncomfrotable' and leak a barage of negative press depreciating our very own asset was just out of the tillman book of stupid.

I think we're in a good position though. We can package those picks, I don't find the nets trade terrible just underwhelming and uncertain. If we figure out what to do with WAll next year then its almost a fresh start

 

It has been said many times. The context of his age is that he has accomplished season after season exactly the same thing. Nobody says that he is a scrub. He is elite in many areas. But his most glaring weakness has never been repaired and after 4 full season, it does not look like it will ever be.

Of course you know all these. We don't really need to repeat.

 

I’m cool with Porter, chance at a top 4 pick, and a fresh start with young guys like KMJ

 

If he was that good he wouldnt be benched the last couple of mins vs the Hawks.

You are harping on his pros but the problem is his skillset (defense+playmaking) isnt worth the max by themselves. If you disregard offense at all you can find lots of borderline elite defenders at both wing and forward spots, thats not hard to find just look at DLeague. They cant get in the league cuz they cant shoot. Maybe Simmons is better than those guys but he's not that much better you pay a max for his services. Just cuz the Janitor is 3x better than normal janitors doesnt mean you pay him what the CEO makes.

Gobert is different cuz you can run a post offense thru him and he also affects enture team defense unlike Simmons who just guards 1 dude. His impact is a lot larger than Simmons.

 

If you trade Simmons, thats not a tangible piece as well lol.

We dont know Simmons value esp with how he has flopped hard with Embiid and a bunch of shooters around him, on this team he would struggle even more sunce we have seen he cant do crap when Embiid and Harris are gone.

All the pieces being offered by Philly cant shoot, Simmons, Thybulle and Maxey all have broken Js only good for defense and or/playmaking. Why we need more brokeback shooters on this squad? Wall not enough for you? SMH!

I'd rather have KPJ and all the picks we got in the Nets deal. And before you say KPJ wasnt part of the Nets deal he only got traded cuz Cavs got an influx of players due to the Nets deal, look it up.

 

ITs fair, we don't but I'd wager he'd get 2 and better 2 than we got. Jrue holiday on hte wrong end of 30 got 3, aaron gordon got one at the deadline. Simmons is still an allstar, still young, now hs a flawed all star. but other teams can fit him in much better.

if you think about it, jrue got very similar return as harden a pick off. I would've rather had at least allen then a milwaulkee late pick.

thybulle is on his 2nd year and he'll be a good shooter. he doesnt have a broken form, is getting more comfortable spreading it. Likewise on maxey, hes a rookie and a lottery level talent and scorer at that. hes got a fine shot too. i wouldn't indict them as bad career shooters now, they both should only get better and dont ahve the same mental hang up as simmons.

once again, its assets. No players are fixing us this year, i think those assets are better.

KPJ wasn't apart of the deal. If peopel really think we planned for him to throw food at his gm and then ignore that he hadn't played a single minute on the team up to that point this season, they were bound to fall apart. now if the deal gave us a dialogue with their gm, sure thats fine. its a strech, but thats fine. definitely happy and the silver lining of KPJ helps a whole ton.

 

Using Jrue Holiday as a measuring stick is wrong. If Jrue Holiday is worth 3 picks why is Oladipo worth just sliding up slots in a conditional pick? The fact that Simmons is an allstar doesnt really mean teams will throw lots of picks for him cuz he costs the max, again Dipo was a former all star too. What we have seen with Simmons he is too weak to be the franchise dude he is afraid to shoot and will be subject to hack a simmons just like Shaq, except Shaq scores 24 pts 1st-3Q Simmons has like 8 all game lol. So if you got him as the sole star here he will flop and look even more garbage than he is right now.

Maybe thybulle and maxey improve but MPJ is better than those 2 combined asset wise. No the Rox didnt plan for MPJ to arrive but it doesnt matter whether its luck or skill the point is he arrived on this team due to Nets trade. If no nets trade, no food throwing incident and no MPJ trade. Cavs gave up 4 2nd rounders for him a year ago they arent trading him away for no good reason.

 

Simmons accomplishments season after season this early in his career is now a negative and proof that he cannot improve?

Many players take 5 seasons just to accomplish a fraction of what Simmons has.

Ben Simmons is by no means a perfect player but the CF narrative about him is insipid.

 

LOL

Post defenses do nothing in the postseason.

Switch everything defenses are the best defenses in the playoffs now.

Even the Bucks admitted they needed to go away from their bread and butter drop coverage and embrace more switch to have a chance vs. Nets.

 

Rockets really revolutionized the game. First their "gimmicky" offense would never work. Now how many teams in the playoffs play the "3 & D" way? Also when they were switching everything against the Warriors, same talking heads thought the strategy was dumb, yet somehow it allowed the ROX to compete with that squad of All Stars .. and now? Switch everything is the name of the game in the playoffs. Sincerest form of flattery watching all the haters play like the Rockets.