When was Iguodala the 6moty? Also, calling him a "former star" is generous considering he's been an all-star once in his career. If Draymond Green were the best defender of the modern era, wouldn't he have more than 1 DPOY award? Elite defense with elite rebounding is much better than elite defense with mediocre rebounding. Ever heard of offensive rebounds? Ben Wallace was an elite defender and elite rebounder. He would've flourished anywhere. Disagree. Curry/Durant/Thompson/Iguodala would've been enough to win a title. LOL. Which star players would've been willing to defer to Draymond Green's "leadership"? Certainly not Harden. Not Lillard. Not Lebron. Not Durant. Not CP3. Not Westbrook. Not Leonard. Not Butler. Not Embiid. Not Giannis. Generally, basketball is a meritocracy. Curry is an exception; this is yet another example how Green landed in the perfect situation. Why are you assuming these guys would willingly let Draymond Green be a primary ball-handler? Aside from Curry, how many star playmakers are willing to consistently play off-ball? Also, Trae Young isn't an elite shooter. Neither is Jamal Murray. You're flat out wrong, and frankly, this is an extremely ignorant statement. Given the same kind of space that Green sees, most point guards are capable of making the same passes. His passing is elite when compared to forwards and centers.....not guards. So much stupid here. Since when is John Wall a good defender? Porter has played 16 games. Nwaba played 30. Avery Bradley has played 8 games. Again....please use some critical thinking.
we're talking about making the playoffs, not winning the championship. every team in the league doesn't have stars teaming up. that's not mathematically possible.
You acknowledge that star players are teaming up but don't understand how this impacts teams with weak supporting casts like GSW. Strength is relative. The stronger your opponents become, the weaker you become. And you've missed the point of my Harden allusion. Harden was a Jazz win away from missing the playoffs. If your point about "superstars" hinges on one game, then it's a stupid point. How much help does Curry need? Who knows. Why not start with a single all-star teammate and go from there?
No, but several western conference teams have multiple all-stars which means that teams like the Warriors, Mavericks, Grizzlies, and Pelicans are competing for maybe 2 playoff spots. Of those 4 teams, the Warriors are the only one with a lack of size. Did you really expect them to make the playoffs given their lack of overall talent/size? I didn't.
Good catch. I meant 2017. The 2016 Rockets talent comparison is tough since I don't know how to value Dwight Howard. He was iced out on offense so he became disengaged. Logically, the talent was still there, but the motivation wasn't. However, the Rockets had solid perimeter defenders in Ariza/Beverley who were both respectable 3pt shooters. I'd rather have Dwight/Ariza/Beverley than Green/Wiggins/Oubre. It's basketball. Shooting is important.
Star players team up to win titles, not make the playoffs. Plenty of bottom feeding teams don't have star players teaming up there and still make the playoffs. The Lakers and Nets had guys team up. No one else. Your point was pointless. Harden made the playoffs. He has never missed it as a Rocket, no matter how bad his teams were. And again, we can list numerous other players to carry bad teams to the playoffs. Why can't Curry? A superstar can make the playoffs surrounded by garbage. Why should we give Curry a pass for failing to do so?
He didnt receive it but he was one of the best sixth men in the league and he did make their death lineup work. He was a former star in Philly. He was a lead guy. Its not generous at all. He's also been named to an all nba defensive team twice. Regardless my point stands that he was absolutely one of the best sixth men in the league. Kevin Garnet has one defensive player of the year award, Tim Duncan has none. This is a bad argument. Those are also not that important and certainly not as important as Draymond's IQ on offense and his passing ability. Draymond for a good part of his career could at least hit SOME threes, Rodman was not a 3 point shooter. Ben Wallace is not guarding dudes on the perimeter like Draymond can. 1-5. Ben Wallace would have hard time against guards and great offensive forwards like Lebron and Kawhi. You are wrong, flat out wrong. Terribly wrong. Please watch the video I posted. To say this statement is truly a bad basketball take whom none(anyone who actually knows ball) would agree with. All of them, what? This is nonsense. This is statement completely not based in reality. Do you know how much dude's talk on the floor, its freaking ridiculous. What dude, this is the NBA, guys will do what it takes to win. Trae Young can play off ball, he takes a lot of difficult threes but Trae is an elite shooter, poor shot selection does not mean poor shooter. Jamal Murray is shooting 41% this year and shot 45% last year in the playoffs. Lillard can absolutely play off ball. Sheesh man. When you have smart players they are never going to be flat useless out there. Nope. Not true at all. His transition passing, his outlet passing and his passing on back door cuts and movements in GS offense, there are not a lot of players who can make these type of plays. His short roll passing is also excellent. Nope, simply elite. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/67-the-top-10-passers-in-the-nba/id1428290303?i=1000496369436 Listen to this. OR WATCH THE VIDEO I POSTED Alright man, I've been respectful I expect the same. John Wall is not a bad defender. He's at worst average and at best decent. Okay? Victor Oladipo was playing here and our defense was still trash. In those 8 games the defense is till trash.30 games is a lot LOL. Wood has played with Nwaba and our defense is still 19th in the NBA. Are you really denying that Draymond Green has a much higher defensive impact than Christian Wood? Are you really saying that? I wish convos with you could be productive.
Hit dog holla. You went full maga in a NBA thread, thanks for removing any doubt what happened to you. Did you actually call me a r****d as well?
Iggy was a "bench player" by name, like Harden was a bench player in OKC. He played more minutes than Barnes the starter. Stop twisting things. You might as well say that their bench was Barnes and Livingston. And Livingston was part of an all time great bench? He was a 30-year-old who GS gave a chance to savage a career after a crippling injury. How about these benches: Rondo, Kuzma, Dwight, Morris, McGee Chalmer, Haslem (or better yet, Ray Allen, Battier) Ginobili, Kurt Thomas, Horry McDyess, Arroyo, Delfino and this one: Cassell, Ellie, Herrera All time great? Yeah, exaggerated. And I already pointed out that Klay and Draymond were no AD, CP, Westbrook, Irving, Durant, Wade, Bosh, etc. Those were not just all stars. They were franchise players before joining up. I've said everything I want to say on this.
Sorry, but this is just stupid. He was an all-star once in his career. It's silly to refer to him as a "former star". It's clear that you're trying to inflate his credentials to suit your agenda. Do you consider Jamal Magloire to be a former star? Otis Thorpe? What's your point? Has anyone claimed that Garnett/Duncan were the best defenders of their era? No? Then it's a fine argument. You dislike it because it proves your statement wrong. The question isn't whether or not Rodman's offensive rebounding is as important as Draymond Green's IQ and passing ability. The question is whether or not Rodman would be "actually useless on the Warriors on offense." Regarding 3's, if Draymond Green attempted a 3 pointer, that was a win for the defense. And for a few years, Rodman attempted one 3 pointer per game. In other words, you're wrong again. And Draymond Green can't guard Shaq like Ben Wallace could. Or grab rebounds like Ben Wallace could. Let's also remember that, for their 2015 title, it was Iguodala guarding Lebron James.....not Draymond Green. Who would've beaten a lineup of Curry/Durant/Thompson/Iguodala? None of them. You think Draymond Green is well-respected by other players? He isn't. Don't forget that in an anonymous poll of players, Draymond Green was voted "most overrated". Harden wouldn't listen to CP3....you really think he'd listen to Draymond Green? Lillard's ego is too big. Lebron is a top 2 GOAT. He's not deferring to anyone's "leadership". Durant didn't follow Green's "leadership" in Golden State. He's not following it anywhere else. CP3/Westbrook/Leonard/Butler/Embiid/Giannis all think of themselves as "the man". They're not going to be "led" by Draymond Green. Wrong again. Guys will do what it takes to win as long as it's on their terms. If Kobe just wanted to win, he wouldn't have feuded with Shaq. If Harden just wanted to win, he wouldn't have forced out CP3. And if Draymond Green just wanted to win, he wouldn't have feuded with Durant. Trae Young isn't an elite shooter. That's a statistical fact. His career high in 3pt% is 36.1%. Jamal Murray is shooting well this year, but this is the first time he's surpassed 40%. It's premature to label him an "elite" shooter. But then again, you think a single all-star selection makes a player a "star"..... Again, you're ignoring how much space he's given to make those passes. Nope, you never had my respect, and you no longer deserve my civility. For months, I was nothing but respectful to you, and you insisted on continually insulting me. So now, when you say something stupid, I'm going to call you out on it. It'd be easier if you stopped saying stupid things. John Wall isn't a bad defender, but is he a plus defender? No. Are Oubre and Wiggins plus defenders? Yes. You're trying to conflate average defenders with plus defenders. Sorry, but that's just stupid. And Oladipo? Seriously? He didn't want to be here. He was never engaged on the court. 30 games isn't a lot when you're looking at season-long defensive rankings, and the Rockets have played 53 games. Quote me where I said (or implied this).
Again, if your point about being a "superstar" hinges on one game, it's a stupid point. The Clippers also had guys team up. And several teams have multiple all-stars. It's all about relative strength. For instance, when Harden took the 8th seed Rockets to the playoffs in 2016, the Grizzlies were the 7th seed. They had no all-stars. The Mavericks were the 6th seed, and they had no all-stars. Portland was the 5th seed, and they had no all-stars. Currently, the top 7 western conference teams (by record) all have all-stars. Given that Curry is universally considered a superstar, it's clear that your criteria for "superstar" is wrong. But consider this. The Warriors are 25-28, and Curry has missed 8 games. The Warriors are 1-7 in those 8 games. In other words, with Curry, the Warriors are 24-21.
LOL iguodala is no longer a bench player because hes "too good". Thats what we are going with now. But at the same time you mention manu ginobili? And im the one twisting things? I get you want to hate on superstars for teaming up but role players matter too in the nba. That warriors team was as stacked as anyone and then they added kd on top of that I do hope this is all you have to say because I dont know if I can take much more
I mean it is fascinating how gut wrenching that team could make you all. Lol, even if you did not like them, there should be minimum respect here but I get it. We were obsessed with them ....... (I am hoping me excluded.) Treat them as the anomaly of last decade.
Nice deflection attempt. Harden has never missed the playoffs as a Rocket, no matter the cast. You keep ignoring a very direct question, with a silly example of a guy who actually did not go lotto and never has. A superstar can make the playoffs surrounded by garbage. Why should we give Curry a pass for failing to do so? If the supporting cast is weak...SO WHAT. A great cast or all-star caliber teammate isn't needed for a superstar to get a team to the playoffs. We see superstars make the playoffs with weak supporting casts often (ie not just Harden). Why should we give Curry a pass for failing to do so? In case you missed the question you keep skipping, I'll ask again. Why should we give Curry a pass for failing to do so?
It seems like you don't understand relative strength. When Harden took the 8th seed Rockets to the playoffs in 2016, the Grizzlies were the 7th seed. They had no all-stars. The Mavericks were the 6th seed, and they had no all-stars. Portland was the 5th seed, and they had no all-stars. Currently, the top 7 western conference teams (by record) all have all-stars. Also, the Warriors are 25-28, and Curry has missed 8 games. The Warriors are 1-7 in those 8 games. In other words, with Curry, the Warriors are 24-21. In 2016, Harden led the Rockets to the playoffs with a record of 41-41. Why are you holding Curry to a higher standard than Harden? If you insist on repeating yourself, I'll simply repeat this response.
I understand relative strength just fine. It's a bogus excuse. The Blazers, Mavs, Grizz and Spurs don't have multiple stars on their teams. Please list the stars (plural) on these teams. They are all ahead of GS. Porzingis made one ASG. Didn't you clown someone for calling Iggy an All-Star based on the one game he made? Porzingis has only played 34 games this year. Who is the other All-Star in Portland? Melo hasn't been one since 2017. He barely got back into the league. Memphis and SA have none and are ahead of GS too. No, Curry is not facing some stacked conference that all of the superstars that were able to not go lotto before him didn't have to face. His comp isn't tougher. Bullshit excuse. A team with Ja Morant and no other all-star player is in playoff contention and ahead of his team for the 2nd year in a row. His fragility is part of the problem. The best ability is being available.
Again, the next time you call me stupid, im just gonna leave the civility behind here. He was the number one option on Philly for several years. He had better advanced numbers than Donovan Mithcell does now for reference. He was a very very good player, worthy of star accreditation. Yes, they absolutely have a case that they were? Its not a fine argument? They are two of the best defensive players of all time. I cant believe I really have to explain this. No, the question was..."would he be less useful in GS's offense" yes. Nope, he shot 39% in 2017. He had the second best advanced numbers on the squad btw. He's also a career 32% three point shooter. Rodman is a career 23% shooter from 3. Guys wanted to leave Dray open because they had no other choice on those stacked Warriors teams. He's not shooting great now but he's absolutely more useful as a shooter and offensive player than Rodman. Nope. Yea he can, he has greater defensive impact and IQ than Shaq and can actually guard one through five unlike Wallace. So? One on one defense is great but there is so much more to the game than just that. Draymond is also an amazing help defender as well. And that was one series in the finals. You should go check Draymond's advanced numbers for that 2015 playoff title run, it will surprise you. Rockets and Cavs easily, and Im being generous. Draymond holds a lot of things together defensively. By right ones, yes. Draymond was also selected for team USA as well. Just because some dude's(they are wrong) think he's overrated doesn't mean he doesnt command respect in a locker room. Russ was also voted most overrated and guess who gets a lot of respect in locker rooms...Russ. Harden listens to PJ Tucker. PJ Tucker by his own admission gets into Harden's face more than CP does. If they were winning and Draymond was performing he would absolutely listen to him. Lillard,ego too big? Do you watch the NBA? Yea and Lebron would respect Draymond just like Lebron respected Rondo. Its not about "deferring" its about working together. Durant did until things got messy and they got into it. See, the way you think about it is wrong. All those guys can lead and be led at certain points. There can be multiple leaders on a team. Not a good argument. Kobe feuded with Shaq because Shaq got lazy. Harden did just want to win, he thought Russ was better stupidly. Draymond wants to win more than anyone he's the one who recruited KD there to begin with. KD is the one who started changing and acting weird that whole season. Shot profile matters dude. He takes difficult shots. He's a great shooter He would still work well with Draymond which is my point. Iggy has a great advanced numbers as a number one guy. You can only use things like all star appearances to simply measure it, I do not. So a non response then. You are basically ignoring the points being made an sticking to your guns. Ok. Lol okay man. I already apologized previously. Im trying to do it differently now so lets try to keep it civil then. If John Wall is an average defender than C Woods should be able to make it much better than 19th in the league. Oubre and Wiggins defensive numbers(grain of salt lol) have them as BARELY positive. Almost all the metrics though have Draymond as one of the top defenders in the league and better than Christian Woods much better. Woods is not making the Warriors a top 10 defense. He cant guard one through 5. No, what you are dont get is that the difference between those type of defenders exist on a gradient and that the difference between Draymond and Wood on defense is much greater than the difference between Wall, Wiggins or Oubre. Oladipo played defense? He was a positive defensive player. It was offense where he sucked. 30 games is a giant sample size out of 23 games and it enough to make up the vast majority of the stats shown. We are 19th, they are in the top 10 and have been consistently all season. They blew us out without Curry on the floor 2 days ago and you still have the gall to say this. You need to get over it. Draymond is the head of the snake which leads a top 10 defense. If C Woods was as really as impactful on that end of the floor we would be better than 19th. Woods hasnt had bad defensive personnel around him for you to try and justify them being a below average team. Than what are you saying lol? That Wood is a better player? He's not and I've shown you time and time again why he's not. I've given you so much video evidence there(and a podcast) by someone who knows way more than both of us and you still can't even acknowledge their arguments because your ego will not allow you to.
The lower than expected impact Curry has on winning has been exposed. He is someone that has a game that can play off of other star players well (as long as his defense is hidden) but he isn't someone that really does a great job of carrying a team or making his teammates better. He is a first ballot Hall of Famer, but he isn't in the top handful of players from his era when all is said and done. Still a neat player to watch play, I love his shooting touch and ability to come off screens.
