As stated "blood choke" is not a term that is generally used and as stated I personally wouldn't have used that term if I was testifying. To answer your questions. The techniques are designed to cut off blood flow through the jugulars, carotid or both. Different techniques target different parts. That said yes you can speak while such a technique is going on. I once was passed out by by a "choke" and apparently I was saying "you don't have it" while my opponent was putting the technique on. A properly and perfectly applied choke could pass someone out as fast 5 seconds. Yes such a choke if left on for an extended period of time (not sure exactly how long) could result in death. Under competition rules you're supposed to release the technique as soon as your opponent taps out or goes limp. Further this technique is disallowed for young children and there has been talk of banning them for minor and novice competitors. The technique could show physical effects but not necessarily. The technique might not show any damage and the reason why these techniques are used is because they are considered less lethal than airway chokes which could fracture the trachea and lead to swelling that closes off the airway and / or direct pressure to the neck that could break the neck. You would complain that you couldn't breath because they are applying pressure to the neck, maybe not directly to the spine or windpipe but it is causing some airway constriction. Note I'm talking about a class of techniques that in Judo we call Shime Waza and technically is often referred to as Vascular Constriction Techniques. As stated in my earlier post the technique Chauvin used is part of those but not exactly the same as other techniques. That technique is far more about causing pain and stress while leaving your hands free. As stated part of why you would have trouble breathing is being on your chest while pressure is being applied. You can try this at home. Lie down on your driveway and have an adult just sit on your back (not on neck) and then try to breathe normally. This is why one of the prosecution arguments will be why Floyd wasn't put in a recovery position (on his side) that Lane asked Chauvin about. It shows that as LEO they were aware of the damage being done to Floyd and that there was method to address that while still maintaining control.
RK answered most of those questions several times and none of them actually matter in the case. Officers found he had no pulse and Chauvin still continued to kneel on his neck.
Maybe Floyd could have turned into a zombie and magically started resisting as soon as Chauvin let go of the hold?
Acknowledgment: Of the 9 minutes and change where Chauvin has his knee in contact with Floyd's neck, I put it at 4 minutes 30 seconds where Floyd is generally still and not talking. During which time his breathing is checked after about two minutes and his pulse is checked after about three minutes. His breathing is verbally acknowledged. When his pulse is checked, the officer makes no comment, neither confirming nor denying feeling a pulse.
So acknowledge the part where the point of the hold even though extremely dangerous is to restrain a RESISTING Individual and that for 4 minutes and 30 seconds Floyd was not resisting and was motionless and therefore the intent of the hold was no longer to restrain a resisting individual.
So if the fear was resistence, Floyd wasn't resisting enough to have officers check the pulse and breathing. It seems safe to release the uncuffed unresistant person then if that is truly the concern.
To note I'm against banning these techniques and this technique in particular. I think if these techniques were banned we would see the unintended consequence of LE using more lethal techniques. The issue that I see isn't that the technique was used in the first place but that it was put on for an excessive amount of time and in a manner that showed a callousness that even the other LEO on scene were concerned.
What exactly dose this mean to you? If you can admit he was generally still and not talking why is he still kneeling on the neck? You have given a case for manslaughter right there. And yes 2 officers made a comment on feeling a pulse. "Prosecuting attorney Jerry Blackwell laid out the timeline for the jury of when former officer Derek Chauvin had his knee on George Floyd's neck. Blackwell said that while Chauvin had his knee on Floyd's neck, he was told "twice" by other responders on the scene "that they can't even find a pulse" on Floyd. Despite that, Blackwell said, Chauvin did not remove his knee."
Donald Williams finished testifying this morning and was cross examined by the defense. From what I can see he did a good job. The only criticism I had of him was the use of the term "blood choke". Note some of the questions brought up in this thread were brought up by the defense. https://www.npr.org/sections/trial-..._1kt5ezxmz18V_Ar8HcfJYJCCmG2ZNtPJWodK5lm9Umac Jury In Chauvin Trial Hears More From Witness About 'Blood Choke' Updated March 30, 20211:13 PM ET Jurors in Derek Chauvin's trial on murder charges is hearing more from a key prosecution witness on Tuesday as Donald Williams returns to the stand. Williams, a trained martial arts fighter, said he warned Chauvin he was using a "blood choke" on George Floyd moments before Floyd died in Minneapolis last May. "This is what I saw," Williams said after Minnesota Assistant Attorney General Matthew Frank displayed a now-famous photo of Chauvin holding his knee on Floyd's neck. In the photo, Chauvin is looking up at the camera. "The only reason why he's looking at me right now is because I told him it was a 'blood choke,' " Williams told Frank, who is leading the prosecution. Williams, 33, is an entrepreneur and professional fighter who lives a block or so from Cup Foods, the store where the struggle between Minneapolis police and Floyd took place. When asked what he heard from Floyd, Williams said the man was in distress, repeatedly saying he couldn't breathe and that he was in pain. Floyd also said he was sorry, Williams recalled. He later said that at the time, he didn't know Floyd's name. Chauvin, 45, faces three criminal charges over Floyd's killing: second-degree murder, third-degree murder and second-degree manslaughter. Describing his own past, Williams said he was a wrestler in high school who has been practicing mixed martial arts since 2009. He has worked in private security for much of the past 10 years, he said. With Frank asking questions, he discussed his experience with chokeholds and the practice of "tapping out" when a fighter submits. He also said he saw Chauvin use a "shimmy" hold on Floyd, to restrict his motions. Williams had gone fishing with his son earlier on May 25, and he said that after struggling to remember how to cut their catch up, he decided to get some air and pick up something to drink from Cup Foods. But as he walked toward the door, he saw two police vehicles outside. He started to wonder if perhaps he should just leave. He never made it inside. "My energy stopped me, the surroundings stopped me," Williams said. "The energy of the air ... the energy was off. I couldn't like, get in the door for some reason." As he watched the police actions taking place outside Cup Foods, Williams said he wondered, "Should I involve myself?" He started hearing people talking and yelling as officers struggled with Floyd. Someone was saying to calm down. Another person called for their mother, he said. And one voice was saying, "Let him up." The court saw a still photo from a surveillance video, showing Williams walking toward the door of the store, with the police in the street and bystanders standing along the edge of the sidewalk. "I observed the scene first before I spoke," Williams said. An older man was calling out to Floyd, telling him it would be OK and not to resist arrest, Williams said. Bystanders also told police they were concerned. He said he also heard "George, on the ground, pretty much pleading for his life." Williams walked closer to the commotion, moving to the edge of the street. As he recalls, he was "battling with myself to stay on the curb" as he watched what transpired. Williams said he called former officer Tou Thao by his last name because he was close enough to read it on the officer's badge. As for what Thao's role was, he said, "He was the dictator," controlling what happened along the curb. "He was the guy that let it go on," Williams said. Thao and two other officers will be tried separately on charges of aiding and abetting. "I was totally scared for my safety and those around me," Williams said as he continued his testimony Tuesday. He said he grew emotional because of the situation – and also because of how police were behaving. They were "nonresponsive" to his and other onlookers' concerns, he said. He added that after the ambulance arrived, Chauvin did not take his knee off Floyd's neck. After Floyd was loaded onto a gurney and taken away in an ambulance, Williams lingered. He was nervous, he said, and didn't know what to do. He saw the officers move across the front of the store, away from the scene. Williams then pulled up his cellphone, called 911 – and reported to the dispatcher he had just seen a murder. He said he felt the need "to call the police on the police." The prosecution then played the recording of Williams' 911 call in court. "That was bogus, what they just did," Williams told the dispatcher. In the emergency call, Williams singled out one officer by his badge number – he was referring to Chauvin, he acknowledged as he pointed to the former officer in court. Under questioning by defense attorney Eric Nelson, Williams discussed the range of choke and submission he has learned about across mixed martial arts disciplines. The defense attorney then spoke about "air chokes" in which pressure is applied from the front. "On a blood choke," Nelson said, the goal is to cut off the flow of blood to the brain. He added that such moves are performed on the side of the neck. A blood choke can render someone unconscious "within seconds," Williams said. He added that in an interview with FBI agents, he told them the same thing. Nelson then asked if Williams had ever seen someone lose consciousness and then attempt to keep fighting when they come to. Williams said he has seen that, particularly when someone who has lost a match is confused. But under follow-up questioning, Williams added that if anyone in a match loses consciousness, the competition is immediately halted. The defense attorney then sought to portray Williams' perspective at the scene as limited, saying that by the time he arrived, at Cup Foods shortly after 8:23 p.m., an ambulance had been called and then quickly "stepped up" to a more urgent code in the minutes before Williams walked into the altercation. It was one of several points Nelson pursued as he emphasized that events had been going on for some 15 minutes before Williams arrived. Nelson also noted that Williams had not seen the other two officers who were at the scene – and that he couldn't hear what the officers were saying to each other. Describing Williams as growing angrier as he watched the scene, Nelson referred to notes from an FBI interview in which Williams told federal agents, "Like I really wanted to beat the s*** out of the police officers." Williams acknowledged saying that. But he insisted he wasn't angry, saying the situation required him to show "controlled professionalism." In a line of questioning that sometimes grew a bit contentious, Nelson asked Williams to confirm the names he called Chauvin, such as "tough guy," a "real man," "bogus," and – 13 times — "a bum." "You heard the video," Williams said. Nelson also said Williams used profanities, calling Chauvin a b**** and a p****. After Floyd was taken away, Nelson said, Williams told Thao, "You will shoot yourself in the head for what you did." To that, Williams said it was simply a prediction, not his personal wish. When asked if he saw Floyd lose consciousness, Williams replied, "That is correct" – an answer that was allowed to stand despite an objection from Chauvin's attorney. He added later he was afraid Floyd could lose his life.
I think he was just trying to control his movement until the ambulance arrived, and that it was not his intention to render Floyd unconscious. I think there is substantial evidence that is what happened. There is no physical evidence of damage to Floyd's neck. Chauvin's knee was touching his neck for an extended period of time during which Floyd remained talkative, continued shifting around. During the time that he was no longer speaking, one of the officers asked for Officer Thao to retrieve the hobble from his bag in the cruiser. Do you put a hobble on someone that you have no concern of further resistance from? I simply think there is more nuance to the case than repeating knee on neck over and over. I think in the details, there are tidbits that the defense will pull out that can add up to reasonable doubt. Other people are free to feel differently. Everyone draws from their own experiences. Mine suggest to me that this is not the slam dunk case many seem to believe it to be.
You don't need damage to the neck to cause brain damage and ultimately death from restricting blood flow to the brain. Again, the entire point of the move is to stop a resisting Individual from resisting from sheer discomfort. The intent is not to restrict blood flow to the point of brain damage and ultimately death. We've told you it takes 4-5 minutes to cause permanent brain damage from the brain lacking oxygen from blood flow.
Another issue with the argument that Chauvin kept the technique on Floyd because he felt that he needed to keep Floyd under control. Again this overlooks that Floyd was cuffed and had two other officers on top of him but also this wasn't the only technique that could be used to keep Floyd under control. As noted this technique is used because of it allows your hands to be free to disarm or cuff a suspect. In the video we don't see Chauvin doing much with his hands and even puts them in his pockets at one point. Given he doesn't need his hands he could've moved Floyd into a "recovery position" that might've kept him alive. This isn't a failure of training as Chief Arrodando has stated that MPD did have training in such techniques. https://www.mprnews.org/story/2020/...s-knew-how-to-keep-suspects-subdued-breathing " The training requires moving an arrestee from a prone position into a recovery position, which means seated or on their side. The department added the instruction in 2014 as part of a $3 million settlement, when a police officer pressed his knee on 28-year-old David Smith’s back making it hard for him to breathe. “The training was there,” Arradondo said in a statement Monday. “Chauvin knew what he was doing.” “It is important to note that getting an arrestee into a position where he or she can breathe is something that is hammered into all of our officers,” Arradondo added. “And this began even before the Smith settlement’s required 2014 training.”"
Chauvin kept his knee on Floyd's neck for 5 or so additional minutes after Floyd became unresponsive. "In the last five minutes, Floyd appears to be unresponsive. But Chauvin kept his knee on Floyd’s neck, even when an ambulance arrived."
You can't possibly know how much pressure Chauvin was putting on Floyd's neck. You are assuming that he cut off blood flow to the brain. That is not necessarily the case. If there were petechia, that would at least be evidence that blood flow was interrupted, but there was not. There was not even bruising to the neck. How would the evidence look different if Chauvin was not affecting blood flow at all and Floyd died of a heart attack incident to drug overdose and struggling with the police?
So you think he committed manslaughter because that's not how you control a suspect and its not taught anywhere. There was an actual EMT on the scene and she testified there was pressure on the neck and he continued to apply it even after he was subdued and unconscious so you can stop making **** up.
I hope Officer Thao goes down for this too. That *sshole never did a damn thing to intervene or save George from being murdered. Just standing there pumping his chest as people pleaded and pleaded for Chauvin to stop. He never even turned around to check, intervene, or stop Chauvin from killing him when people were screaming that he wasn't moving, or didn't look like he was breathing. Even the EMT's pleads to help didn't phase him.
I really don't see how they overcome the testimony of the EMT, that was very damaging. I have no idea what the defense was trying to do in that cross examination.
