Iverson’s Finals team was 5th in defense. Only 0.9 points per 100 away from #1. They had the 13th offense. One of the lowest ranked offenses in NBA history to make the finals. He made the finals because his team was a defensive machine and he played in a weak east. Their offense that year was average and this claim of making the finals because of his passing is just a pulled out of nowhere claim that isn’t based in the real world. Keep things in the realm of reality.
durvasa is just way off...like out of touch, alternate reality off I remember after games 1 and 2 of the 2015 WCF, there were a ton of comments like “Wow, Harden was actually fun to watch. Why doesn’t he play like that all the time? He was trying to score instead of draw fouls” and other nonsense Harden being boring to watch isn’t some thing just started a few years ago...
u said this “The boring label really only goes back a few years in the seasons when he has led the league in scoring. I don't remember people calling him boring in MDA's first year as coach with us when he was leading the league in assists, for instance.” false...he’s been called boring since at least 2014...and yes, he was called boring during MDA’s 1st year as he was averaging 11 fta per game...just because it went from free throws which still persisted until he became this “fun to watch” guy in BK to because of ISO doesn’t change the fact he’s been viewed as boring long before these past couple of seasons
I live in MN and I went to a Rockets game a few years ago with a friend. Harden attempted like 40 shots that game. I think it might have been in the middle of the "unguardable tour". My friend was thoroughly disgusted by the shots Harden was taking. I explained to him that the Rockets were short-handed with Chris Paul being out and so forth. It made no difference to him. He just thought it was ugly basketball. So, I disagree. It wasn't just the free throws. Not in those years.
You're right. Now, go back and read the next paragraph where I said that before the last few years what people were complaining about with Harden was the FTs.
About the FTs I absolutely do agree with you. We disagree on wether his game is actually more palpable to viewers now, its not imo. He also hit his step back at an good rate though(36-38%). The dribble dribble stuff matters way less than you think it does. His EG% is in line with other dude's like Lillard and Kyrie so neither do the makes/misses. If you had watched him in Houston, there should be no significant change in how you feel about him now because you got a signiicant look at both his passing and scoring abilities.
You are missing the larger point I was making. People weren't complaining about his non-FT plays being boring before the last few years. That's what I meant. It used to be just FTs. In recent years, it was the high volume of ISO plays and three point attempts that turned off people.
It's much easier to watch a player shoot 40% on shots they take 7 times a game versus watch them shoot 37% on shots they take 12 times a game. I think you are under-selling the difference in people's visceral response to those two cases.
that didn’t stop them from letting free throws completely overshadow the rest of his game and everything else he does on the court so that he could get labeled as boring or someone everyone hates to watch...ISO and threes was just some more things people could latch onto that’s why they’re so surprised that Harden is actually a great passer and has excellent court vision...they didn’t watch him, or they let 1 or 2 things overshadow everything else that he does at the end of the day, he’s been viewed as boring since at least 2014...all the reasons casual fans wanted to come up with over the years really doesn’t matter
I mean....that's anecdotal evidence bro. By in large....its about FTs. If he never drew as many FTS or if he played in a big market like he does now, they wouldn't think he was boring. It is about the FTs. The iso stuff is just fluff because they really hated him because of the foul drawing. You ever hear people taking about Kobe being boring, he isod a ton as well. All of that iso, dribble dribble stuff has way less weight than you think it does.
Im really not. If the player had drawn like 13 FTs a game in both scenarios....than it really wouldnt matter for the dudes who hated him.
Harden’s also down to a 24-26% usage rate, way down from his 36-40% usage rate here. This pretty evident from what I’ve seen from their offense. I’ve noticed that in the offensive actions in Brooklyn, when harden gives up the ball, the players continue the action instead of just giving it back if they have no shot. In other words, they have more leeway to play. They also take the wide open midrangers that we wished Houston would take (except Russ who sucks at every shot). This is true even for the players not named KD and Kyrie. It’s an offense that just seems more balanced than what we had here with Harden, yet still hyper efficient. It’s a nice offense to watch.
Kobe's ISOs were totally different from Harden's, usually, and he didn't do them as frequently. He had a much more varied scoring game. People appreciated the diversity of his shot-making ability. But there were definitely stretches where Kobe would go into gunner mode and ignore teammates who are just standing around, and that did turn off people. Anyway. Here's a thread that includes a bunch of people talking about whether they find Harden to watch. From last September. What I gather from the responses is that the biggest thing people don't like about Harden is the foul drawing. So you're right on that. But there are also complaints about his overall offensive style not being aesthetically pleasing, not liking the volume of 3 point shots he takes. The last one below you can see someone saying that they liked how Harden played before D'antoni arrived. Note that Harden was drawing fouls a ton in that pre-MDA era as well, and arguably much more cheaply than in recent years. What changed in the last 3 seasons under MDA is the type of shots he attempted and the frequency of ISO possessions. Samples:
You make an interesting point about the wider team offense. I think that also affects how people view Harden.
Its literally just Joe Harris and Shamet, two of their best shooters who do that. And the players do generally give it back to Harden.
Yea, I think I can agree with the Kobe argument. They are different.I should not have made the comparison. So yes,it is the foul drawing. A small number of people in that thread dont like his dribble dribble iso game but you could find these type of people for any basketball player. By in large this is about fouls drawn, playing in a bigger market, and people who have never actually bothered to watch him play. They hated him so much because of the fouls so it just blinded them to everything else.
